The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 141 - Share Your Process

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey Pete.

Pete: So I caught up with a friend a few weeks ago, and we were sharing various projects that we're working on, and they were similar in nature. And what we discovered through the conversation I think is worth unpacking, which was just how different our process was for thinking about these projects.

Jen: Oooh. You know I love any conversation that has the word "process" in the mix. So, I'm all in. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I just had a flashback to an episode we did, I think called Process, and you sung. "You say process, and I say process."

Jen: Except I did it on a different melody than the one you just used. But, yes.

Pete: Sorry, it was tone deaf girl. That was tone deaf girl.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: But in that episode, because I revisited it prior to wanting to talk to you about this...I was like, "Maybe we've already talked about this." But we talked about process without talking about sharing our own process, if that makes sense. So we like hypothesized and philosophized about process without actually sharing our own. And so this conversation I had with a friend I found totally fascinating because basically, we're both doing a version of a keynote, or she was doing more of a an online workshop and was very curious about, "So what's your process for this? You know, the way that you approach your keynotes?" And I was like, "This is my process, which I'm happy to talk about." And then I was sort of asking her about hers, and she was telling me, and I was like, "Woah, that's crazy. I can't believe you approach it that way. That would never work for me." And the reason I share it is not for us to again hypothesize about process because I feel like we've probably done that quite a bit, but actually to see the benefit in sharing our process with one another. Like that conversation created aha moments for both of us, because we were willing to say, "This is how I think about this. This is my process." So I'll just pause there for your immediate reactions, thoughts, ideas about sharing processes.

Jen: Well, I love it. Can't wait to do it.

Pete: Thank you.

Jen: And just the thing that's occurring to me is because we live in such a product-driven world...I mean, yes, like the literal physical products we use. That we have absolutely no idea what goes into...like right now, I'm holding my reMarkable 2 tablet. I have no idea what process went into making this amazing product. (Shout out, reMarkable, if you want to be a sponsor.) And I also think about things that we wouldn't necessarily name as products, but we are so product-driven in our consumption of art, the TV shows that we watch, and the books that we read, we kind of...it's easy to forget that everything that exists started at zero...

Pete: Ah, yeah. Yeah.

Jen: ...and had to go through some sort of process. But why is it easy to forget? Because we don't really talk about the process. Because the process is messy. The process is vulnerable. Often, the process involves making mistakes, sometimes embarrassing mistakes in order to get to the thing that you're ultimately putting out into the world.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, I have two examples that come to mind that I think articulate this relatively well. The first is one that I think about a lot. I can't even remember if we've ever spoken about this before. But I have a...I still have a bit of an obsession with maths (or math, if you're in America.)

Jen: Ah, math with an "s", I just will never get used to it.

Pete: I know. But it's "mathematics". So like, there's an "s" at the end.

Jen: I know. I understand why it's there, but we just leave off the "s" here in the states.

Pete: I know. I'm just sharing my process for why I say "maths". So, in math...like I think about an algebra equation, where you have a series of steps that you are to follow to find X. Often it's like, "Find X. Here is an algebra equation." And you go through a series of steps (i.e. follow a process) in order to discover, find the value of X. And the thing I always remember in class about doing this is you had to show your work, you had to display your process. So, "I did this. And then on the next line, I did this. And on the next line, I did this. And on the next line, I did this." And the reason for that...I actually think that when I used to take math, you got just as many grades for the process as you did for the outcome, which I think is a really fascinating just kind of like philosophy for life, potentially. But anyway, the reason you did that was because when you shared it with the teacher, or with the person next to you, or with the tutor, they were able to help you refine your process, maybe point out where you made a mistake, so that you could achieve a better outcome (i.e. a more correct outcome.) And I think that is like quite a nice summary of why it's important to share the process. Another example...which is really clear in my mind right now because I just read Think Again by Adam Grant.

Jen: So good.

Pete: It's so good. And in one of the pages...I'll do my best to describe it. But on one of the chapters, he shares this great example of a kid who had to draw a butterfly in class.

Jen: Yes. It's amazing.

Pete: And actually has the picture of the butterfly. It's like a very cute illustration that a kid has clearly drawn about a butterfly. And then what happened is the kid in class got intentional feedback about their process, and was instructed to, "Straighten out the wings a little bit," and, "Make it a little bit more balanced here," and, "Try doing this, and, "Try doing that." And then Adam Grant actually shows in the book, I think there were six iterations. Like, "Here's number two. Here's number three." And constantly through sharing the process, sharing the workings, refining it to the point where, you see the final product and you go, "Oh my god. That is a beautiful illustration of a butterfly." So I just think these two examples are interesting to think about the benefits of sharing a process.

Jen: Well, I'm delighted that you shared the butterfly example after sharing the maths example because it points to something that I immediately had a reaction to when you brought up maths. So in algebra, there is a pre-determined right answer to the equation, and you learn the process so that you can arrive at the right answer. And then you share your work going through that process with the teacher so that if you get the wrong answer, they can show you at which step in the process you made your error and you can go back and correct it. So, the outcome is the right answer. In the butterfly example, there's no right answer for how to draw a butterfly. And what I think is really interesting is that in the math example, you are given the process and you share your work very often. In things that don't have a right answer, you share your work, and sometimes the work is absent an actual process because nobody's process is the same. Or that's not fair to say, maybe it's more fair to say that there isn't an assumption that everyone's creative output, or real skills output, or things that don't have a right answer, there's no assumption that everyone's doing it the same way. So I'm just, I'm looking at those two things and I'm going, "Huh. In the butterfly example, was he actually sharing his process? Or was he sharing his work, and getting feedback on his work? And I think the point of the story was that the teacher's process was to take something through six iterations.

Pete: Ooh, I like that. I like that, I like that. It's funny, you shared or you mentioned the fact that we don't necessarily have an assumption that there's a universal process...I'm paraphrasing what you said. But what was really wild about how I started this podcast (the conversation I had with my friend) was like, it was like an aha moment for me. Even though I kind of know that, it was like an aha moment to go, "Oh, that's right. Your process is different than my process." Which was kind of nice, to go, "Oh, okay, interesting. I have a unique process." It actually made me feel more confident about the work that I was doing, because I was like, "Yeah, I have this process. I do it for this reason." And in sharing it and actually, not arguing for it, but explaining it, it gave me more confidence in the fact that this process is going to be helpful in me delivering the keynote that I was talking about.

Jen: Yes. Okay. Okay, okay, okay.

Pete: Here we go.

Jen: I'm hyped up by this conversation. So I don't think it's a surprise to the listeners that I work with actors, mostly.

Pete: What?

Jen: I know, it's shocking. Anyway, I teach a class called Preparing a Role, which is a process class. So during this very extended, very intense period of time, I offer a process that I call a "repeatable process" for the actors to build their character, to actually learn the material, analyze the material, get on their feet with the material, make choices, etc. I offer them my process. And it's not so that, to your point, they can adopt my process as if it's the right process. But it's to give them something to react to. Because when you don't have something to react to, you can't make an adjustment. So, I will offer up this perspective on script analysis. I'm not saying it's the only way. But now that I've laid this out, what are you going to add? What are you going to take away? How are you going to make this your own process? And ultimately, all the actors who take that class exit with their own process. They started with mine, but they leave with their own. And I think that's part of the value of recognizing...like, you can share your keynote process with your friend. That would give them something to react to and go, "Oh. My process is different in this way. And maybe I'll borrow this. And I might reject that piece. But this is how I get my best work out there."

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. I like that. I have another thought...which I'm not even sure it's true, but I'll bounce it off you. Do you think that's what this podcast does for some folks? For many of our listeners? Which is, our process is sort of to think out loud. I mean, not sort of. The process of this podcast is literally, we are thinking out loud. And often we'll get messages or emails to be like, "Oh, you said this, and it made me think of this. And why didn't you think about that? And how come you missed that?" And it's kind of like, "Oh, we gave them something to react to."

Jen: Yes. I actually think that that is spot on. And I remember when we were first doing our "who's it for", "what's it for" brainstorm for this podcast, and I'm pretty sure that one of the things on the "who's it not for" list was people who just blindly agree with us on everything.

Pete: Right. Yeah. Very true.

Jen: Like we want people to go, "Oh, that made me think about that differently. And I do not agree with what you came up with. Like, I think you are off." And when someone shares that with us, that gives us a chance to (in the words of Adam Grant) think again about what you shared and grow. I think what this is making me land on is that sharing your process helps you to develop your process.

Pete: Totally agree. I totally agree. It helps you, and it helps the other person. So, it's quite a generous act. That's not to say, "Share your process with any stranger that you come across." But like, with the right people...although granted, we do share this podcast with anyone who's going to listen, so it kind of is anyone. But I think in most cases, you know, I wasn't walking up to a stranger and saying, "Hey, here's my process for how I came up with my keynote. What do you think?" I was like in a conversation with someone about that particular thing. And it helped me, and it helped them. So, I think I agree. I think I agree.

Jen: Yeah. And I think this goes back to the distinction I was making earlier which is, there's a difference between sharing your process and sharing your work. That I could very openly share my process and not have that require emotional labor. "The first thing I do is read the script. The next thing I do is I catalogue the given circumstances. Then I name the super-objective of the protagonist." You know, whatever the order of events is. But that doesn't tell you what I feel about it. That doesn't give you like my internal organs displayed for all to see. It's when I share my work that that becomes a lot more vulnerable.

Pete: Mmm. Yes, that resonates, for sure. I think that one of the things I'm thinking about in this moment as we're having this conversation is, sort of like thinking to myself, "Why is it beneficial to the other person and to us, in sharing our work, sharing our process?" I wonder if, I would hypothesize that one of the reasons is...I wrote a blog post a year or so ago that was titled something along the lines of "What's Ordinary to You is Extraordinary to Me." And, the principle-

Jen: Oh, yes. I remember this, actually,

Pete: Yeah, the premise of the blog post...I had a few examples of like, you know, the performing artist gets onstage, sings, and acts, and dances. And for them, it's just the way that they seek to make sense of the world, and connect with an audience, and create art. But for mere mortals like myself, I look at that and go, "I could not possibly fathom even shuffling a two-step in front of thousands of people." You know? Like that is just extraordinary, in my mind. And to many of the people in your community, in your world, it's like that's quite an...not ordinary, in the negative sense. But like, "That's how we do things around here. That's what we do."

Jen: Yep. That's how it goes.

Pete: Right. And so I actually think that sharing the process, sharing our process, sharing our work is interesting from the perspective of, we often get those moments of like, "Oh, wait. You don't do it that way?" And someone might reflect back, which is what happened to me with my friend. They were like, "Oh, that process where you think about, 'What are three stories I could tell, one per point in your keynote that would help articulate that point?'" She was like, "That's a really brilliant way of thinking about structuring your keynote." I was like, "What do you mean? Isn't that what everybody does?" And I realized, no.

Jen: No.

Pete: That's because you and I teach people to do that in the Big Ideas Lab. Like to me, that's how I think about it. But to a lot of other people, that is not ordinary to them. So I just, I feel like that helped validate for me, "Oh yeah. That's a great part of my process." And it helped her be like, "Oh, I should think about stories to add to my process."

Jen: Oh my gosh. Okay, so circling back on building the curriculum for Big Ideas Lab...maybe you remember this conversation. I remember it. So, we were talking about structure. We were both in agreement that the process would include naming the large piece and then having a story, at least one story to articulate that piece. So when we drew it out, I drew it out as these long columns, rectangular columns. That was the way I perceived my work in that process. And you were like, "Huh. Yeah, three rectangular columns is not going to work for me. I do it like this." And then you drew these like squiggly lines. And I was like, "Woah, I cannot see the bullet points within these squiggly lines." And it turns out like, that is the way we each interpret that process. That's our work within the process. So we even use the same process for identifying the key points and the supporting ideas, but then when we pour ourselves into it, it looks completely different on the output.

Pete: Yeah. I mean, in fairness to the squiggly lines, it's what I think of as a wavelength.

Jen: Okay, okay.

Pete: So it's a nice, flowy wave.

Jen: Did it not have a squiggle?

Pete: There was a small squiggle, yeah.

Jen: Okay. And then, I wanted to share one other thing which popped into my head. And I actually learned this from my husband, Mark, who is really, really brilliant. When you are trying to help someone to articulate their process, a good assignment is to offer them the chance to write the table of contents for their "How-To" book. So like when I'm teaching actors, for example, I would say, "If you had to write a book called How to Act, what are the chapters called?" And when they lay out what those chapters are, oftentimes there will be a point where they're like, "I don't know what the next chapter should be." And you go, "Ah. That is the missing piece of the process. Like, that's the part you need to focus in on." Because chapters one through five, you know, read the script, do the thing, dee-dee-dee, dee-dee-dee. "Mmm, I'm not sure how I get from this step to this step." "Oh. Let's hone in there, and see if we can identify what the process is." Then I can help you use your process to get the result you're looking for, or to get closer to the result that you're looking for.

Pete: For many years, and still in certain circumstances, I actually forget that I have a process, or a process. And I think back to...gosh, it must have been in the first twenty episodes we did, where we did an episode called Whiteboarding. And you said, "Pete, can you share your whiteboarding process?" And I was like, "What do you mean, my process?" "Like, what do you do when you go to a whiteboard?" I was like, "Oh. I just do this, this, and this." And you're like, "That's a process." I was like, "Oh, yeah. Interesting."

Jen: "Oh. Cool, cool, cool."

Pete: "Cool, cool, cool." And the other example I think about a lot, which I know I've shared with you before, was I was running an in-person workshop with three other friends of mine, Michael, Kirsty and Mary. And we were, you know, at the venue thirty minutes before everyone was arriving. And Michael was going through the run sheet. In fact, I think Kirsty was too. I think Mary was probably getting things set up, and just in the zone. And I was kind of sitting there, I guess mindlessly scrolling my phone. And I looked over and I was like, "Oh, wait a minute. Michael's reading the run sheet. Kirsty's reading the run sheet. Everyone seems to be very across what's about to happen." And I said to Michael, "Could I have a look at the run sheet? Because I probably should familiarize myself with the order of events." I started getting this story in my head of like, I wasn't doing enough. I would need to follow the process that other people were. And he said, "Why do you need to look at the run sheet?" And I was like, "Oh, becasue I don't...I'm not across in detail, how you want to approach each section." And he said, "No, you don't need to do that. Your process has been happening for months and months, and years and years, and weeks and weeks prior to this. Because the way that you record the podcast with Jen, or do a keynote with a company, or coach a leader, or, you know, run a workshop, that's your process. Like, we're going to throw to you at the relevant time, like Jen throws to you. And you're going to riff on imposter syndrome." I was like, "Oh, right. My process has been, you know, the weeks and months and years prior to this, of thinking about how to structure workshops. I don't necessarily need to familiarize myself with a script ten minutes before kickoff."

Jen: No.

Pete: And that was, to go full circle, that was the distinction with my friend when we were talking keynotes, was like, "What's your script? What software do you use for writing a script?" And I was like, "I don't have one. I have a structure, a very clear outline. I have stories in my head that I know I'm going to tell. And I know that they're going to come out different every time I do this, because I don't have a script. And that's my process." So just that realization that, "Yes, I had a process," was quite profound for me, even.

Jen: Oh, I love that so much. Okay, so here's where I think we landed on. In order to do anything, you have to go through a process. Because if everything starts from zero, you've got to go through a process to get it where it's going to go. It might be worthwhile to share your process, so that you can get feedback on it, offer others something to react to, learn, expand, and grow, so that the work you're putting out into the world gets better, and better, and better.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.