The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 207 - Practice What You Preach

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I'm sitting across the room from you right now, which is just so funny.

Jen: I know. It's kind of amazing. We're sitting here in my studio in New York.

Pete: Yes. Yes, we are. And last night, we did a live episode-

Jen: So fun.

Pete: -with some amazing listeners. And we got some incredible questions, some of which we recorded in-episode and answered, and others of which we thought, "You know what? That feels like an entire episode." And here we are. I think I have an entire episode worth of noodles, because someone asked us for our thoughts on...drumroll...practicing what you preach.

Jen: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So immediately, listener, when we heard somebody ask us this question, we looked at each other and were like, "Oh, we have thoughts."

Jen: Yeah, "Hold the thought."

Pete: "We have thoughts."

Jen: "Let's put a pin in that for an entire episode please."

Pete: Exactly. So, here we are. The pin has been put in said topic, and now we're going to unpin it, I guess?

Jen: Pull out the pin, Pete.

Pete: So, I'm curious what you think of when you hear this idea. I know we've talked about this before, you and I, offline and in podcasts. But tell me, what are your current thoughts? What's your current stance on the very notion of practicing what you preach?

Jen: I think it's backwards. I think it's backwards, Pete.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I think we have a global epidemic of people who need to be told to practice what they preach, because maybe it would be more instructive to preach what you practice.

Pete: To preach what you practice, yeah. So naturally, I agree, because we've talked about this many times before. And I guess to unpack how I think about it, to me, in order to preach what you practice, it puts the...this sounds funny to say out loud...it puts the practice first. As in, develop a practice, whether that's recording a podcast or writing a book or whatever your practice is, have a practice, have some rules for what that looks like or a process for what that looks like, and then when you've made discoveries or learned things from said practice, feel free to share them with others, i.e. preach.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And to me, that just makes so much more sense than what I think I hear a lot of, which is, "You should only practice what you preach." Which, to me, is like putting the preaching first.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And then, "Okay, so now you've preached that, you'd better go do that," which just feels so backwards.

Jen: It feels cart in front of the horse.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Mmm-mmm, I don't like it. Yeah, you know, I've had this conversation with many of my clients...when I was starting out as an actor, I had the greatest agents of all time. I mean, they were just absolutely amazing and demonstrated for me what an incredible agent/client relationship could look like and what possibility would look like. And because I have experienced that, my clients believe me now when I tell them that kind of relationship with their own agent is possible. Whereas had I not experienced it, had I not practiced it, had they not practiced with me what a successful agent/client relationship looks like, I would just be making shit up. But I feel like I had that experience so that I could talk to people about it now and say, "No, I have firsthand experience that this is actually possible."

Pete: Mmm. I like that. It makes me think of the distinction between mentoring and coaching, actually. So I'm sure we've shared on this podcast before, but often I get asked, and I know you get asked this question of, "What is the difference between a mentor and a coach, or a teacher and a coach?" And I think one of the things that differentiates the two is the requirement, in a mentor capacity, that the person has done the thing that you're seeking feedback on. So it might be that they're seeking feedback on this particular show that they're performing in, and they know that you used to play that role in that show so you have a fair bit to say about your experience/your perception of that person's experience of the show. Versus a coach...so this is where I'm like a little curious about this whole notion of practicing what you preach versus preaching what you practice...whereas a coach is often actually, they're not required to have had the experience that someone is seeking feedback or input on. And this is why often coaches ask questions instead of giving opinions, because they recognize that they have beginner's mind, which is a superpower, and so they ask questions rather than making statements and assertions more so. Does that sound fair? Is that right? Do you agree?

Jen: That coaches don't need the lived experience of their clients?

Pete: Yes. And is that contradicting the rule we're talking about of preaching only what you practice?

Jen: No. Because as a coach, you are not saying, "When I asked your boss for the same promotion you're about to ask for." Instead, you're saying, "I can empathize with the imposter syndrome, and here are some questions I have used and you might use to overcome or work through your imposter syndrome."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So, you don't necessarily need to have lived the experience. But to offer someone, "You know what you need to do? You need to do X, Y, and Z," and to have never tried it on for size in any way, shape, or form, that's where we run into problems. And I don't know about you, and maybe I might make some enemies right now, but being a person who has spoken at conferences, you have the opportunity to hear some other speakers speak.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And sometimes, I know what I'm being sold is snake oil.

Pete: Right. Yeah. A very polished talk, but you know that the principles of said talk or the ideas they're presenting, are they practicing themselves?

Jen: Correct.

Pete: Right. Yeah. I feel like everyone's had that experience, haven't they?

Jen: Right?

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I'm sure I've been guilty of not practicing what I preach. And quite frankly, the reason I know I've been guilty of it is because I remember the feeling of making some suggestions or offering advice and then feeling that thing in my stomach like, "I actually don't know if that's the best advice," and kind of like grasping for straws.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Instead of...well, this goes along with another leadership skill. So if preaching what you practice is a leadership skill, practicing humility is another one.

Pete: Right. Recognizing when you have a blind spot or when you're not qualified to share an opinion or an idea, or you caveat with the fact that that's the case.

Jen: Well, I think that's it. To be able to say, "I've never tried this, but this might work."

Pete: Right. Yes.

Jen: As opposed to, "I know for sure, you should do this."

Pete: Right. Ah, that's a good distinction. So, it's not that we can't share ideas. Of course we can share ideas. But let's have some humility and recognize, A., when we are sharing something that we do ourselves, and then, B., when we are sharing something which we read in a book one time but we've never implemented ourselves.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Yeah. Which I know, I think actually from time to time...well, not even from time to time...sometimes we do that in the podcast, of like, "I read this thing. This might be helpful for folks." Sometimes we've put it into practice ourselves, but sometimes maybe we haven't. We're just like noodling on it and thinking about it and sharing that out loud, not saying this is a definitive way to move forward but it's an idea.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. I'm sitting here laughing because I remember when my daughter was in like second or third grade, all the kids in the class were given a violin to take home because they were learning to play violin. And she was squeaking out some pretty atrocious sounds. And I, who have never held a violin in my life, I was like, "You know what you need to do, Cate? You need to X, Y, Z." And she was like, "No, I don't, mom." And I was like, "Yes. Here, like hand it to me, I'll show you," and like I put the bow on the string and nothing came out. And I was like, "Nevermind. I have literally no idea what I'm talking about. Bye."

Pete: Which reminds me of, when you have the experience...well, I have the experience. (I won't say "we", the "universal we".) I have this experience when watching the Olympics. And I'm watching some obscure sport that I've never even interacted with except for every four years when I see to the Olympics, and I think, "Oh, that person missed that jump or that high-dive off the ten meter platform. You know what they should have done, is tuck a little more." Which, I don't even know what that means.

Jen: Right. Pete Shepherd, the new co-host of Armchair Expert.

Pete: Right, right. Exactly. So yeah, I think the point is, we all do this from time to time.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It's recognizing when we are, and maybe having some humility to say that out loud. And then, okay, so another way I've thought about this...I remember telling a client this, who was and is quite a brilliant creative and was having a block around sharing some of the things they had created. And so, we were using this metaphor of like, "I've been in the studio building all these things and coming up with these things and writing these ideas down, and I've got some ideas and I've tested them, and like I've got all these findings, I'm having trouble sharing them." And to me, that was like the definition of the practice first.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I think that's where I maybe first interacted with this idea of preaching only what you practice. And so, we were kind of like joking about, "Well, you spend all this time in the studio, you build this stuff, you create these learnings because of trying things. And then, it's like you emerge from the studio and you go, "Hey everyone, this is what I just learned doing this." And I just, for me, I've liked that visual of like emerging from a woodwork studio with a series of broken pieces of woodwork but then like this one shiny thing that you built, and you go, "Let me share with you what I just learned trying to put this thing together." That, I think, is a really useful way to think about sharing knowledge.

Jen: In my brain, I'm dancing around the word "preach".

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I like what you just did, which was replace it with "share".

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. This is a good point. I don't think I've interrogated that word enough, "preach", because it sort of invokes this, "I discovered the truth."

Jen: Yes, it feels a little status-y to me.

Pete: Yeah, yeah...and final. I just think it feels like, "I know the right answer," and I don't think there is a right answer.

Jen: Right.

Pete: You know? Like, you could share a finding, or a discovery, or an idea based on your experience. But to preach a truth is a little different. I think you're right.

Jen: So if we were to go to the editing room with a red pen, does it feel good to you to say, instead of, "Preach what you practice," "Share what you practice?"

Pete: Absolutely. Yeah, "Share what you practice." And then I just, I wrote that down and started laughing to myself because I realized there's a book by Austin Kleon called Share Your Work.

Jen: Right? Right.

Pete: Which is kind of what we're talking about, and actually what he talks about in that book. He's written...I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies...he's written a great book (which was the follow up to Steal Like An Artist, also a great book) which is all about this idea of sharing your process, sharing what you're learning, sharing what you're discovering as you're going. I think that's what we're saying we resonate with far more.

Jen: Yeah. We've talked in the past about our Cup O' Noodles society, where everything just feels like, "Add hot water, stir, and, poof, you have a result." And what I really like about, "Share what you practice," is it sort of debunks that idea that results are instant, and instead leans in to the messiness a bit more and the challenges and obstacles that a person might face.

Pete: Yeah. So you mentioned Armchair Expert, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And one of the things I really enjoy hearing them reflect on is, "What is the macro takeaway from having interviewed hundreds of people at the top of their field, from Bill Gates to Barack Obama to, you know, Ashton Kutcher, from like all random walks of life, all these people who you would say are in the top top top top top echelon of what they do?" And Dax, at least, shares his takeaway is basically that no one really knows for sure.

Jen: Hmm. Yep.

Pete: Everyone's got about 60% or 70% of the way there, and that's their idea or their finding or their discovery or their work. But no one knows for sure. There's all these contradictory ideas, there's all these conflicting opinions, and none of them can be a truth. They can kind of just be an experience based on a practice, I guess.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. So instead of, "Preach what you know to be absolutely factually true," becomes, "Share what you practice."

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: Because there's a humanity attached to that, there's like a messy human quality that underlies that version of the idea.

Pete: Right. Yeah. I know it's getting far less bumper sticker-y, but I feel like, "Share what you discovered in your practice."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: You know? Like, something like that.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So you had your practice, you made some discoveries. Now, share what those are. And maybe we'll resonate with them, and maybe we won't. Yeah, it does feel a lot less bumper sticker-y though.

Jen: Well, it pings off of that old famous parental motto, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: When I hear myself say that, I immediately think about how it's also useful to share the pitfalls of what you've practiced-

Pete: Oh, yeah.

Jen: -so that other people might choose to practice something different. So, "When I was your age, I made this mistake."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: "So, don't follow in my footsteps here."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "This was my practice. I'm sharing it and it was not a great idea. Maybe there are other possibilities down a different lane."

Pete: Right. That's why I like the idea of it being discoveries or work from your practice, because one of the discoveries might be, "This was a really bad idea." You know? Or, "This definitely didn't work."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Like, "I tripped and broke my ankle, and I wouldn't recommend you try doing that next time." You know? Like, that's part of sharing. And I don't know if this is true, but when I hear...going back to this idea of, "Practice what you preach,"...I hear that and I think of, "I'm only sharing the like tweetable highlight reel, you know, that I have discovered, and there are no faults with this idea. This is something...," and I think that comes from the word "preach" too, "...this is like a faultless concept that must be bestowed upon everybody." And I just think, no.

Jen: Just no.

Pete: No. Just no.

Jen: Yeah. What you're describing, my brain immediately went to the Instagram version of someone's practice.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Where it's like, it's beautifully shot, the filters, the color is so saturated, everyone looks perfect.

Pete: Right. Yes.

Jen: But the truth is that what lies outside the frame is also part of the practice.

Pete: Right. Which, I mean, I go back to Armchair Expert or like podcasts over and over, but to me, this is why I really like some of those like two/three hour podcasts, because you can't have someone, no matter who they are, be perfectly polished and Instagrammable for three hours.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: At some point during that podcast, they'll be like, "Oh, yeah, I have so many insecurities. And these are all of them." And I go, "Ah, boom, there it is."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "That's what you've discovered through your practice: your insecurities." That's the kind of stuff I resonate with, because I'm like, "Oh, me too. I have insecurities too. Like, isn't that crazy? And even this person at the top of their field is struggling with imposter syndrome." To me, that's reassuring, rather than the, yeah, like you said, the Instagrammable highlights reel.

Jen: Also, just sidebar...I don't know how you make it through a three hour podcast.

Pete: I know. I love it.

Jen: Like, just the thought right now is giving me hives. But since you have shared what your experience of that has been, maybe I will give it a try.

Pete: I mean, this is me sharing, exactly, my practice. I'm not preaching listening to three podcasts without having ever done it.

Jen: Right.

Pete: I do it on the weekly. I do it on the weekly, which is a nice little meta way to start to wrap this up. So Jennifer, I feel like this fits into the category of what drives Jen crazy.

Jen: Oh, 100%, yeah. "Practice what you preach," is one of my least favorite sayings of all time, but I will happily replace it with, "Share what you have discovered in your practice."

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.