The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 208 - Different Processes

Transcript:

Jen: Hi, Pete.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: I had a marvelous experience the other day with some of my coaching clients that left me sort of in awe about how different people's processes are and how totally different inputs can get people to the same place.

Pete: Interesting. All while taking a different process/path?

Jen: Right.

Pete: Yeah, okay. I'm intrigued by this. You've already used the words "marvelous" and "awe"-

Jen: Wow.

Pete: -which is an exciting prospect of what this podcast could be. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: So, I'm in the middle of my summer coaching program.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And I'm seeing a lot of my private coaching clients back to back to back to back during these like marathon coaching days, which are so exhilarating.

Pete: I'm so impressed, like one after another. It's very impressive.

Jen: It's so good. It's so good. I mean, I have the best job in the world. Basically, the most world-class extraordinary singers sing at me all day. It's like absolutely amazing. So I had this experience where I had two of my favorite clients back to back for coachings, and their approaches to the coachings could not have been more different. So the first person who came in, Natalia, she came in with such a high level of preparation.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: So she did all the messy work at home, on her own.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And then, she brought in a very polished product that we were then able to mold and shape in a certain state.

Pete: Make even better, gotcha. Yep.

Jen: And it was epically good. I mean, just so so so good.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And then right after Natalia left, Matt came in.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And Matt does the messy work in the room.

Pete: Ooh. Okay.

Jen: So he's like, "Let's get down and dirty here. Like, let's make a mess out of this work. Let's see like, what are the surprises? Where are the experiments?" And he spends a lot of time going like, "I just don't know it. I don't know the material," which, he totally knows it. But he's just in the sandbox.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So we do the messy stuff in the room, and then we shape that to the final product.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: In both cases, I was left with my jaw on the floor at the level of the work, the sheer brilliance,-

Pete: Yes.

Jen: -and the fact that both of them, at the end of their coaching hour, had a deliverable.

Pete: Wow. Yeah.

Jen: And I was like, "Wait a minute. It's so easy to forget that your process isn't everybody's process." And so, to see that hugely stark contrast back to back was just an incredible reminder that everyone has to work in their own way in order to reach the level of excellence that they're aiming for.

Pete: Yeah. Wow. There's like forty-three different metaphors, I think, that we could take from that. We've recently done an episode about practicing what we preach and preaching what we practice, and part of the takeaway that we were sort of exploring or part of the noodle that we were stirring around was that there is no universal truth that we can preach and so all we can do is share what we've discovered during our process. And I think what this is kind of double-clicking on is just how different people's processes can be. And not only that, but you could extend that to how different people's ways of thinking, how different people's worldviews are, and why empathy is so important. And like, this is a metaphor for leadership and a metaphor for life. So it's like a whole exercise in sonder.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: You know? Or [American accent] "sonder", as you call it...I always like saying that joke to North Americans, everybody loves it...which is, you know, this idea that the realization that everybody else is living a life as rich and as complex and as profound as your own. Everyone else has a noise in their head, i.e. everyone else has a process. And like, what a rich thing to learn, remember, remind ourselves of, no matter who we are. I think about it, especially in a leadership context, where you can imagine where things go wrong when a leader tries to micromanage a process with a team full of people, all of whom have a different process.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Like you try and fit the highly-structured behind-the-scenes process into Matt, it's not going to work.

Jen: Nope.

Pete: He's going to freak out. He's going to get disengaged. It's not going to go well. That's happening in companies all around the world, every single day.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Hence the idea of leading with empathy and curiosity, and this idea of like making a container for it, which is another thing we could take from this. You had the one hour container, the one hour constraint. How do we, as leaders and humans, make containers and spaces for others to have a process of their own within that? So I know I threw like five different things at you, but this is wild, this is taking my brain in so many directions.

Jen: I love, I love all these directions. It's reminding me of being in a rehearsal room, where you've got a director who has their process.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And ultimately, we're all in the room in support of the director and the playwright's vision. And then, each individual contributor has their own process.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Which, sometimes those processes jive with each other and sometimes they conflict.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Because if you are the kind of person who really needs to...I'll, you know, put this in an acting context. If you're the kind of person who really needs to hold your script the first time you are working on a scene on your feet and your scene partner is the kind of person who does not want scripts anywhere in the space, that is a conflict. So you, there's like a need to respect that everyone has a process, and is there an opportunity for flexibility or like opening yourself to recognizing how your process might impact others?

Pete: Uh-huh, right. Yeah.

Jen: Because in a private coaching context,-

Pete: It's fine, right.

Jen: -whatever your process is, like that's great, I'm there to support it.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But if this was a rehearsal room and the two of them were working together, each one of them would have to compromise something.

Pete: Right. Yes, that's such a great point. You're making me think of, you know, I was talking about the leadership context just before. And one of the things I worked with a bunch of clients on recently was this idea of like a one-pager team agreement or a team rhythm document, whatever you want to call it. And, well, I'm realizing now, it was an exercise in everyone writing down their process for work, to some degree. And so we created this one-pager, and every leader (it was about five thousand leaders around the world) was intending to sit down and have a conversation with their team and co-create this one-pager. So it had like some guiding principles and questions, like, "What does a great day look like for you in the office? What does a great day look like for you at home? Where do you do your best thinking on these particular projects? Where do you prefer to do your collaborating and connecting?" Right? And the feedback was consistent, that each leader, every time they did it, was kind of blown away by the fact that they had all these people in their team that had a different version of success.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Some people wanted to be back in the office four days a week. Some wanted to go back once a week. Some people really liked doing deep work at home. Some people said home is the most distracting place ever. And so, this idea of like capturing our processes and sharing them amongst a team, I'm really obsessed with. I'm really obsessed with. And I think it goes, like to go back a step, what it actually requires...which is what I was going to ask you before I went on this random thread...is, how do we get clear on what our process is?

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because that is, I mean, I've had this experience of like doing something...this happened in an earlier episode of our podcast called Whiteboarding. I had this experience of doing something in front of you, and you were like, "Wow, what an interesting process." And I was like, "Was that a process? Is that what that was?"

Jen: Right. "That's just the way I do things."

Pete: Right. So, how do we get even clarity around what our process is or what our processes are?

Jen: Yeah. That is, well, I feel like that's the golden question of the moment. Do you remember when you and I were building the Big Ideas Lab...which, for those of you who are like, "What the heck is the Big Ideas Lab," this is our workshop for people who have big ideas that they're ready to get out of their head and into the world. And we got to the point where we were laying out the process of developing a keynote.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And you were like, "Okay, and now is the point where you map it." So I go up to the whiteboard and I draw these columns, and I'm like, "And this is how you think about the bullet points." And you were like, "Actually, it looks like this," and then you draw these squiggles. And I was like, "What the hell is that?" And you were like, "Well, what the hell is that?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: And we realized that our thought process, like the way our brain organizes our bullet points, was completely different, which was such an important aha moment.

Pete: Yes. So true.

Jen: But I wouldn't have known that that was really like my process, unless I saw that yours was so different.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And maybe this goes back to the value of sharing your work, sharing your process.

Pete: A hundred percent.

Jen: Not only do you learn more about yourself, but you learn more about the possibilities of things you might incorporate into your process.

Pete: Yes. Right. I totally agree. And if you're teaching others...you know, I remember in that particular cohort of the Big Ideas Lab, we had some people that were like, "Oh, the Jen way makes so much more sense than that," and then others that were like, "Oh, the squiggly lines, Pete. That's where it's at," and I was like, "I know, those squiggly lines, right?" So like in sharing different processes, others were able to see which one resonated with their own process.

Jen: Yes. And then I remember, we had another person who was like, "I prefer a mind map," and she just drew her own thing, which was like great.

Pete: Right.

Jen: However you're going to get to the point where you can get on a stage and deliver a keynote...that's the end game, that's the goal.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So whatever process you need to take to get there, for some people, it might be a multi-month thing. I know for me...I can't remember how long it takes you to do it...but now I'm at a place where I could put something together in three days.

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: And actually, having more time than that disrupts my process. Like, I like the urgency of it.

Pete: Right, so do I. I like the short constraint of like, "I only have to do this in the next couple of days."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah. So then like that, you know, this idea of, "How do we get clear in our own process," also leads me to think about taking advice with a grain of salt. So, I am someone who listens to probably too many podcasts...far too many podcasts. And from time to time, I actually catch myself trying to incorporate too many learnings or ideas or processes that a guest has shared into my own. And then I realize, "Oh, this doesn't work for me."

Jen: Right.

Pete: So I might find myself going, "Oh, but, you know, Jen Waldman said on this podcast that this is the way that you have to deliver a keynote, so I'm going to force force force force. I'm taking her advice, why isn't it working? I hate this. I want to give up." And actually, what I need to do is realize that that wasn't in alignment with my process.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: So advice is great, sharing ideas and stories and getting feedback is awesome, and there's this like self-awareness piece, really, which is, "What is my process? How do I like to work, think, act, learn?" And then plugging in and experimenting with different things, for sure, but just recognizing that what works for someone else isn't necessarily going to work for you.

Jen: You know, an exercise that my husband used to assign, that I borrowed from him (and now, I hope you listeners will borrow from me), is, "Take the thing that you are trying to express the process around and write the table of contents for the book."

Pete: Okay, yeah.

Jen: So like, "How To Record A Podcast," and then we would name all the different chapters. And there might be times where you're like, "I'm not sure what the next chapter is," which may mean that there is a gap in your process that could be filled to be more efficient or effective, or it might mean that you really need to just sit down and clarify for yourself, "How do I actually get from that step to that step?"

Pete: Yeah. I love that idea. Thanks, Mark. And then, I think building on that or what rhymes with that is, to me, teaching others or showing others your process.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Because, I just go back to like the whiteboarding example, the amount of times someone has said, "Can you show me how you [blank]?"

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I go like, "Why is that interesting to you? It's just [blank]. This is just what I do. I do this, I ask this, I do this." And they go, "Yeah, that's...I don't do that. That's a process." Like, I constantly am forgetting that the way that I do things is a process.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so, sometimes I don't even know that I need to sit there and write it down as a table of contents. But when someone asks me, I'm able to realize there is a process there. So I guess to reverse-engineer that, it's, can we teach others or have conversations with others about the way we do things? You know, it's like Austin Kleon again...share your work, share your process.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Yeah. I also think that I've written a blog post about this, where the other benefit of sharing your process is, it invites people to help you improve it.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So this happened when we outsourced editing the podcast to our incredible editor, Sarah Nichols. I had my process for editing, I documented it in a beautiful Google document (it was so wonderfully constructed), and I shared it with Sarah and I was like, "Here, Sarah. Here is the perfect process." And within like two episodes, I think, she'd gotten rid of this step, "This step's terrible. Fast track this. I know how to do that." And so, in me sharing it...if I had have continued to do it myself, sharing it with her, I could have improved it myself by getting her to give me feedback.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: So, the process of sharing our process then enables us to make it better.

Jen: Yeah. Yep. I still am thinking about, how can we observe other people's processes? Like, do we have to go up and ask someone like, "Hey, I see you doing that. Could you just like, could you walk me through it?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Like, I'm wondering how we could become more observant of how other people are working without requiring them to lay it out for us. Like I think even having the conversation with my clients after seeing them back to back, I shared with some of my other clients, "Oh, yeah. You know, I had this experience and it was sort of jaw-dropping. And like in both cases, it was world-class work." And you kind of saw people going like, "Huh, I never thought to come in like that."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Or, "Wait. I always do that, but what if I tried this?" I'm just, I'm wondering, how can we pay more attention or open ourselves up to the idea that the information is out there and we might be able to grab it?

Pete: Yeah. I mean, I go back to how we started this conversation with this idea of sonder. So it's like the recognition and the reminder, which is constant, we need to constantly remind ourselves that Jen has a different lived experience than I do, and Michael has a different lived experience than I do, and everyone around me is having a different experience. And so that also means they're having a different interaction with the work, which means they probably have a different process. So if I can constantly remind myself of that, can I constantly remind myself that there is always something to learn from the people that I'm surrounded by? And then, can I, I guess, allow space and get curious about what that might be? So if I walk into a room and there's five other people that are taking a class with Jen, can I think to myself, "Okay, so these other four are probably going to have a different process. I wonder what I can learn from them today?" And then, you're like deliberately paying attention to how they might have differences that you could benefit from knowing.

Jen: Mmm. I love that so much.

Pete: And then, in a...I mean, I go back to the leadership context too. In a leadership context, this requires a really solid leader to intentionally create the space for others to have different processes, which may mean discomfort. So if there's someone who gets everything done in a flurry in the last twenty-four hours before a deadline, that's going to make the planner super uncomfortable. And you can imagine in a work context, where a leader who is a planner sees someone in their team leaving it until the last minute, wants to step in, is tempted to step in...but please don't step in.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Trust this person's process. Because, I mean, in my experience, those that leave it to the last minute, most people, they'll get it done.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: If they're the kind of person that gets stuff done, they'll get it done. It's just their process. And so that requires, I guess, a level of trust and space holding if you're a leader. And then if you're within the team, the same thing applies, I think, recognizing your teammates might have a different process as well.

Jen: It reminds me of Brene Brown's concept of “Paint Done,” which is in her amazing book, Dare to Lead.

Pete: Oh, yes.

Jen: Which, oh my gosh, please buy this book. It's just so so so good. That instead of saying, "I want you to do this and this and this and this and this, so that this," she just says the last part, like, "At the end, it should resemble this. And however you get there, that's a-okay."

Pete: Yes. "This is what success looks like. Figure out how we get there." I love that. What an empowering way to approach problem solving, huh. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.