The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 230 - Coaches Need Coaches

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I went back into our archive to see if we had ever talked about the thing I want to talk about today, because I was 100% convinced this had been discussed. But it turns out, we've never actually recorded an episode on the fact that coaches need coaches.

Pete: My first reaction is: I don't believe you, that we haven't recorded on this. But I trust you. But I trust you, so we should definitely talk about this. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: I know, it feels like greatest hits. And yet...

Pete: It feels like Episode 4. You know?

Jen: Right. I went back through the archive, and I'm like, "We don't have an episode called 'Coaches' or 'Coaches Need Coaches' or 'We Have Coaches', or anything like that."

Pete: That's hilarious. Okay, alright. So, and this is top of mind recently because...?

Jen: Because I am working on a new keynote, and I thought, "I'd probably make this better if I had someone coach me on it." And of course, the irony is: I coach public speakers, I coach people who are building keynotes. And so, I already know the frameworks. I know the structures. I know the prompts. But as I was thinking, "Oh, I should probably hire a coach," I had a new client come to the studio as an acting client, who is a public speaking coach.

Pete: Serendipity much?

Jen: Right? And I was like, "Ooh, I'm going to turn this into something." So I hired her to be my speaking coach, and we had our first session this morning. And even on my way there, I was like, "Do I really need someone to tell me how to speak publicly?" And at the end of the session, I was like, "What would I ever do without you?"

Pete: That's amazing. That is amazing. Okay, so I agree with the premise. For the record, I agree with the premise that coaches need coaches. And I have many different types of relationships with coaches in my life. I actually have a spreadsheet, it's called Pete's Team, because I once read a blog post...I'm going to try and find it, I can't even remember who wrote it...and it was basically, the premise of it was, "Who is on your team? If you're running a business, or even if you're not, if you're an employee or a freelancer or whoever you are, who is on your team? Who gives you feedback? Who is helping you with certain things?" And I really like that concept, so I just started to like name people. So for me, like I have a strength coach, I have a swimming coach, I have a nutrition coach, I have, you know, like a coaching relationship with you. I have like, basically, I mapped out, "Who are all the people in my life?" And maybe some of them don't call themselves coaches, but I think of them as people who help me with that particular part of my life or my business. Like an accountant, you know? Like, all of the different things. And they all help me in their own unique ways at very specific things. So, I'm like very on board with this idea. I also know that I sometimes have a tendency to try and do too many things myself, and so I'm also willing to accept this episode as being like, "Let's call out Pete, about why he needs another coach or more coaches or another person in his team to be determined."

Jen: Yeah. The thing that's so fascinating is when you have deep domain expertise in a certain area. And so, in this case, I'm thinking about the art and skill of standing on stage in front of people and sharing ideas clearly and in an impactful way. Which, I would say that's my area of expertise.

Pete: Right.

Jen: It's amazing how I am completely oblivious to the obvious.

Pete: Mmm. Oh, interesting. Tell me more. Tell me more.

Jen: Well, my speaking coach, some of her questions are very nuanced and very specific to my content, and some of the questions are so basic that I forgot to ask them of myself. And they're obvious, like very obvious things. And I imagine that this is true in other areas where I have deep domain knowledge, that if I was working on a project just in that area, I would need someone to remind me of the basics. I see this in my clients all the time,

Pete: Right.

Jen: This is my role in their lives. You know, they've trained their entire life to be these world-class actors, and sometimes I have to ask them the most basic questions about the script or the basic questions about the character because they're already ten steps ahead.

Pete: Right. Right. Right. Have you got an example of like one or two or three of these questions? I'm so curious.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Was that a basic question on its own?

Jen: Well, here's one. You know, I'm working on the keynote: "What is the thesis statement?"

Pete: Mmm. Nice.

Jen: Okay. It doesn't get more basic than that.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Or: "What do you want them to remember?"

Pete: Ooh, I love that one. That's a good one.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "What is the problem that they have misdiagnosed, that you are going to help them diagnose correctly?"

Pete: Yeah, nice. So good. And whereas you're over here, like so advanced in your knowledge of public speaking, you're like, "Oh, I could tell the story in this particular way, and make this person the hero of the story. And that would craft the message that way, and that will make them react this way." Like, you're so skilled at the craft of storytelling and narrative building. But to zoom out for a second...that's such a great example of it, the, yeah, the benefit of zooming out, thanks to a third party.

Jen: Yeah. And then, the other thing that was just invaluable is having an inspiration volley with someone who knows what you know.

Pete: Oh, you mean like this podcast?

Jen: Well, I do think that is so much the foundation of our relationship, is both being coaches.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: We just sort of naturally started coaching each other.

Pete: Right. Yeah. And mutually benefiting from that experience, yes.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, I think about coaching a lot, obviously, and get asked questions from time to time, like, "What does an executive coach do," or, "What does a leadership coach do, Pete? What do you actually do in your role as a coach?" And I don't always refer to this when I'm answering the question, but I often just remind myself (I don't necessarily share this with them) of, for some reason, tennis always comes to my mind. Because you have, I mean, Roger Federer has retired, but people like at the absolute peak of their powers, the best players of all time, arguably. Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal, Roger Federer, they all have coaches, tennis coaches. And it's such a helpful reminder for me to think about why an executive might seek to work with someone like me, because they want to hone their craft as an executive. They want to get external feedback. They want to be asked challenging questions. They want insights from other people that they're not talking to, but maybe that I'm talking to. It's almost like an answer to my imposter, is like, that is something that's beneficial to an executive, regardless of what level they're at, i.e. Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal. Look at the level they're at, and they're still seeking coaches. It's helpful from that context. But I also think, which is more what you're talking about and I'm realizing it in this moment, it's actually helpful from the context of us seeking coaches ourselves, to be like, "Who the hell do I think I am? I'm not Roger Federer or Rafael Nadal or Novak Djokovic, and they still have coaches."

Jen: Right.

Pete: So like, of course I could benefit from a coach, you know, in some capacity.

Jen: You know, the other incredible benefit of being a coach who has a coach coaching you with the same things you would use to coach someone else is the empathy builder of being the one in the hot seat.

Pete: Right.

Jen: When you're usually the one putting someone else in the hot seat and taking them through some of these fear busting moments, or helping someone who says they're creatively stuck get creatively unstuck, or helping someone through anything, suddenly, when you're the person who needs help, you're like, "Right. I need to remember how hard this is for the person in the hot seat." Like today, it was hilarious because I was sharing the concept with my coach. And then, she said, "Well, you know, some good homework would be to write a description of the keynote, like as if you were going to market it to someone." And I said, "Oh, I already did that. It's already written." And she was like, "Can I see it?" And I go, "Uhh...ooh...umm...whew, okay. I mean, it's really a first pancake. Like, please don't get your expectations...," and I started doing all the things that I hear my clients doing. And I was like, "Wow, I need my own keynote. I need someone to tell me it's okay to make a mess first."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. So good. Because, I mean, ultimately what we're talking about is like, in some capacity, a coach puts you on the hook.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And even though you know that going in, or even though you're an expert in putting other people on the hook, it doesn't make it easier to be on the hook.

Jen: Yes. That's right.

Pete: It's still beneficial and helpful to be on the hook, even though you know...like, I think about this a lot when I have such a close coaching relationship with a few friends in particular, like you, that I feel like I know the question you're going to ask me. I already know exactly the question you're going to ask me. But it's still helpful for you to ask me.

Jen: Exactly.

Pete: It doesn't matter that I know. It matters that you ask it and put me on the hook.

Jen: That's right. That's right.

Pete: So, I know we're talking about this example that you're bringing is like speaking coach. I'm curious if you've thought about already...I mean, I know you have other coaching relationships in your life, but I'm curious if this like learning has made you think about, "Maybe I need to get another coach in another capacity, or like experiment with...," you know, like you, once upon a time, did some writing coaching and like that sort of thing. I'm wondering if that's popped up for you.

Jen: Yeah, in a really interesting way. Because today, I, on the heels of this experience where I was like, "Okay, well, I am the person who people come to for coaching on their keynotes. Turns out, I need a keynote coach. Where else in my career am I like the go-to person for something?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And that really is for actors who are working at the Broadway level, who come to me to coach them for audition prep and for getting ready for rehearsals, and things like that. And I get so much positive feedback on my work that it hasn't really occurred to me, anytime recently, that I should invite a coach to come watch me coach and give me feedback on my coaching.

Pete: I love it. And it sounds like, specifically a coach with some sort of Broadway knowledge.

Jen: Yes. Absolutely.

Pete: Because I was going to say, you've actually done that with me. I've sat in on some of your classes. But I know absolutely nothing (or very little) about your industry.

Jen: Actually, now that I'm rethinking this, I would say yes and yes. I think it would be phenomenal for someone who has a background in music and theatre and acting techniques and knowledge of the theatre industry to come in and watch me coach my clients and help me get better. But the feedback you've given me when you've watched me coach my acting clients has been equally valuable to me. Because you don't have that industry knowledge, you're able to say things to me that someone with industry knowledge wouldn't see.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's benefit in both. There's merit in both. And like, there's merit in having a coach who's maybe more skilled at the thing you're seeking to do. But then, there's also merit in having a coach who's not or who doesn't even understand the industry you're in, because you get this beginner's mind perspective. I mean, I go back to tennis. There's no one that's more skilled at playing tennis than those three players that I mentioned, or, you know, Serena Williams, or Ash Barty. (Shout out to the Australian, who is at the top, literally the number one player in the world or was the number one player in the world for years.) There's no one more skilled at tennis.

Jen: Right.

Pete: But they still benefit from a coach. So, it's not that they need to be at the peak of the skill set that that person is trying to get better at. But if that's an option, if that's possible, that could also be beneficial too. Like, if I could take a tennis lesson from Roger Federer, I'm sure I would learn a couple of things.

Jen: Yeah. And you know what is popping up for me right now? If I may be vulnerable for a moment...

Pete: Please.

Jen: ...it is that there is a fear. There is a fear associated, for me at least, with inviting a coach to come in and sit in on my classes or my coachings with my Broadway clients. Because I think part of my "status" within the industry is shrouded in mystery about what goes on in there.

Pete: Yeah. Ah, that's good and true.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: You know, executive coaching is very similar. It's like you and the executive one-on-one. And so this, of like, "What happens in those conversations that makes the executive feel like they're getting so much value out of them?"

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's like not even that I'm afraid someone's going to steal my ideas. I feel like I worked on that fear, that fear is behind me. It's that someone's going to think they're not that great.

Pete: 100%. I was thinking, for me, it's my imposter. It's like, someone's going to watch or listen or observe me in a coaching session, for example, coaching an executive, and be like, "What? You asked that question," or like, "What? That was the thought or the feedback that you had? What the hell is wrong with you?"

Jen: Yeah. But I realize, since I'm naming this fear, and also this desire to get better and get some juicy feedback, that I am putting myself on the hook publicly. Listeners, I'm going to invite some coaches who I respect to come sit in on classes, and maybe I will offer to do the same for them.

Pete: I like that. I like that. The other thing I'm realizing that we've done, you and I, that is a way of us coaching one another almost indirectly is we've done two-on-one coaching with a bunch of really amazing people before. And that is, you and I coach the one person.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: It's so much fun, by the way.

Jen: It's so awesome.

Pete: And I learn so much from seeing how you're interacting with the person, or the question that you ask...because we sort of alternate, or one of us catches fire or whatever. And it's indirect, but I learn so much from watching you do that. So, that just sprung to mind as another way too. You could build something in parallel with someone who is also a coach in your industry and learn from how they think about that.

Jen: I want to just say more about the two-on-one coaching, because it was an experiment you and I decided to run. We were like, "Does this work?" And the benefits were just so monumental, both to the client and to each other. And the thing that just is so wild...I know you so well, at this point. I know your style. I know your conversation style. I'd seen you coach large groups of people, but I hadn't ever seen you one-on-one with anyone but me. So being part of the two-on-one, our coaching styles are very different.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And it was just amazing to see, in real time. And I guess this is something we talk about just in our relationship, that coming at something from a totally different perspective, a totally different angle, can help someone get to the same place.

Pete: Yes. And even though one's imposter might be triggered, like mine is and was, when we have done and do these two-on-one coachings, it's helpful for me to hear you say that. Because ultimately what we're saying is, "Yes, coaches need coaches." And when thinking about the work that you're doing or the industry you're working within or the skills you want to develop, that can be a real benefit to seeking external perspectives, whether that be from someone who is an expert in anything you're doing or whether that could be from someone who's not, and learning from that relationship in some capacity.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.