The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 251 - Monologue Meetings

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: So, I'm not sure if we've ever done this before. We've done episodes on what drives Jen crazy, many times.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Some of our listeners' favorites. But I think it's time for an episode of what drives Pete crazy.

Jen: Oh, I am so here for this.

Pete: Okay. So the thing that drives me crazy, that is currently in my mind, is monologue meetings.

Jen: Oh, right there with you. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Oh, the monologue meeting...I tell you what, it drives me crazy. So, this is the latest version of this that prompted me to want to record this. I was in a cafe last week, just here locally. And it's one of those cafes (I'm absolutely convinced you have them in America, because I've seen some of them) where it's basically a co-working space, so everyone orders like one coffee and then just sits there for five hours. So it's a cafe, but it's actually like a co-working space.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And so I was sitting there, having a coffee, doing some work. And the people next to me, I realized pretty quickly, were working together. They were on a team. And what became evident, because I was...I mean, I wasn't trying to listen. They were like less than a meter away from me, like three feet from me. And what became clear was one of them was the other one's manager, and they'd brought this person to the cafe to have a difficult conversation, some feedback was about to be given. And I don't know why, but I just noted, on my phone, the time. And then, the conversation started. "I have some feedback I need to give you," and off she went. And twenty-three minutes later...

Jen: Ahh.

Pete: Twenty-three minutes without this other person having an opportunity to speak, without the other person having an opportunity to share anything. It was a twenty-three minute monologue directed at this person, with some pretty critical feedback. And I was so uncomfortable, to the point where the only reason I stopped at twenty-three was because I had to get up and leave, because I could not handle it anymore. It was a monologue meeting. And it was a projection of, I think, discomfort and, you know, nervousness. But it was twenty-three minutes of monologue. And that drives me crazy.

Jen: Oh my gosh. I'm in physical pain, thinking about this right now.

Pete: It was so uncomfortable. It was so uncomfortable.

Jen: That is a literal nightmare.

Pete: Yes. But I don't think it's that uncommon. And I think I hinted at one of the reasons I think sometimes this happens, is a leader or a manager or a person that's running a meeting might be so nervous or wound up or uncomfortable that they don't even realize they're doing it, like it's completely unconscious. Like, if it's a difficult conversation...funny, it's a "difficult conversation" not a "difficult monologue". But if it's a difficult conversation, I think people wind themselves up to the point of like, "I need to be able to say this, this, this, this, and this," maybe they've got a script, or maybe they're just like so nervous that they don't even realize they're doing it. But I'm here to put an end to it. I'm here to kill monologue meetings, and I want you to help me do it.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I think the world will be a better place for it. Okay, so, Pete, what would you recommend if this person came to you and was like, "Pete, I need some coaching before I have this conversation." How might you help them avoid this in the future?

Pete: I think in this specific case, right, this was specifically around someone giving feedback and it was a difficult conversation. I would say that A., like I said before, it's a difficult conversation which means two people are conversing, not one person monologuing. And very tactically, I would say, try and have the other person talk or respond to a question that you've asked in the first two minutes, at least.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Of course, there might be context you need to set, "We're here to have a conversation. I feel a bit uncomfortable having to have it. It's about that meeting we hosted last week and the way that the client reacted, I just wanted to give you some feedback on it. Do you recall the meeting," or, "How are you feeling about that meeting since then," like insert a question so that they have an opportunity to speak. I really, sincerely think it's that simple. Give the other person, especially at the start, an opportunity to speak. Because chances are, they are just as uncomfortable as you. And it would help them to have their voice heard, and for them to feel like they're being understood and seen and heard. So if that specific situation came up, I would say, "Please get them to speak or say something in the first couple of minutes. Just, please."

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. Because how you get out of the gate establishes the expectations, it establishes the parameters. It's kind of like when we are coaching people for keynotes, I tell them, "You have to get a laugh within the first sixty to ninety seconds."

Pete: Oh, that's good. Yes.

Jen: You just have to find a way to get a laugh, because that tells the audience how they are allowed to engage with this material. Similarly, if you're going to have a conversation with someone, to start the volley early enough that the person on the other end knows that they are a participant in the conversation, rather than just an audience member.

Pete: Oh my god, I love that distinction. You're a participant, not an audience member. Especially true, obviously, when you're having a one-on-one conversation, by the way. But even in a context where it's a keynote, which you might traditionally think, "Oh, it is a little more monologue-style, because it's a keynote," however, even in that context I think your point is valid, which is, it shouldn't feel like a monologue. It should feel like an interaction with the audience or with the participants. And whether it's a laugh or like, you see lots of people go, "Raise your hand if...," and like you're getting the people in the room to participate and recognize that it's a conversation. I love that. That's such a great example.

Jen: The other thing I'm just...I want to be inside the head of this monologue artist right now. Because you can read other people's body language as they're listening to you, and it sounds like she was not in tune enough with the other person's body language to know if something was landing or not.

Pete: Okay, so I don't know if this is too harsh, but you said, "You can read other people's body language," and my reaction was like, "Can everybody read people's body language?"

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: Because sometimes, I wonder. Because it's like, all of the signs are there. Like, the other person was clearly uncomfortable, and she was almost trying to get in and say something but just couldn't. And there was no ability to see that. But maybe it's not that they don't have the skill to do that. Maybe they are distracted by the fact that they want to tick off the things they need to say. Or, I think so much of this comes down to the fear they have of having that meeting or conversation or delivering that keynote. I mean, I've seen this, I'm sure you've seen this, and plenty of people have seen this. Like in a virtual meeting, when there's a meeting host that is giving a bit too much of a monologue. And there's almost like, you can see people coming off mute to try and add something to the conversation, and then they realize like, "You know what? They're still going. I can't get in." And they just go off mute, and they almost lean back and just disengage because you're like, "What's the point? I can't even get in to have a conversation, versus listen to you and your monologue." So, oof, I'm feeling frustrated.

Jen: I'm going to attempt to Venn Diagram this with something that I talk to my acting clients about a lot.

Pete: Alright.

Jen: When my clients are going into an audition situation, they are feeling particularly high levels of adrenaline, they've prepared things, sometimes they're nervous. You know, there's all sorts of emotional stuff going on. And because of that, it is very easy to get into this habit of, "Let me just check off all of the boxes that I said I needed to check."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So I have added boxes for them, and I call it my Five Points of Contact. We could do a whole other episode on the five points of contact. But essentially, these are moments that you pre-determine you're going to stop, look people in the eye, and give them a chance to respond.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Like I said, we'll do a whole other episode on this. But Point of Contact #4 tends to be the hardest one for people, because it's the moment after they've done the hard thing. And you're in that vulnerability moment where it's like, "I can't believe I just did this level of work," and so they sort of like rush out of the room. So I call this the Moment of Silence, where their goal is to fall silent. And for some of them, it is so hard that I have given them tools like, "In your head, count to five," or, "Take two full breath cycles", or, "Imagine a light snowfall. And when the first flake hits the ground, then you may speak." So we pre-determine that these moments will exist because it is such an elevated emotional experience, we kind of have to say, "I commit to pausing."

Pete: I love this so much. So, this is almost...in my mind, it's like can you add, you used the word "rules", or can you add almost like a little game that you play with yourself to drive engagement?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: So, Brene Brown talks about this a lot. In terms of, she will talk about starting a meeting or having a conversation with a person. But even like, she talks about even when she's lecturing hundreds of people at once, she'll do like a two-word check in. And I've stolen this like an artist, and I use this so often. If you're in a meeting with thirty people, it can be hard to get a chance for everyone to speak. But so, what's the equivalent of that on a virtual meeting? It's to type. It's to contribute. It's to say something, to share. And so, just checking in with everyone at the start, "Hey, everyone. How are you feeling, in two words," is her way and a way of getting others to contribute and be part of that conversation, rather than just launching into the thing that you want to say. So this two-word check in idea, I'm obsessed with. The other one that I think about is, depending on the size of the group, I have like this game in my head of, "Can I get every single person in this room to at least say something out loud?" Like that, as a facilitator, that is so often my goal. And yes, there are often things that I'm trying to get across. But I will forego certain things that I want to say in the spirit of trying to get everyone else to say something.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I have this little...I don't even know where this came from, I'm sure I borrowed it from somewhere...but this idea of connection over content. I am like so bought into that idea that I probably take it too far. But this idea of like connection to one another and connection to the ideas that we're talking about, in my mind, is more important than the content.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so, if I'm someone who's running a class or facilitating a workshop, I know I've got heaps of content on the topic at hand. Right? Like the conversation that I overheard, the lady had a lot of content that she could and wanted to share with this person. But in my mind, I'm like connection over content. You can share whatever snippet is relevant at the right time, but first, build connection, connect with the other person. And monologues don't connect. They do not connect.

Jen: Yeah. It feels like even intentionally saying, "This is a dialogue," will help you to avoid monologue. And I'm not even saying, "Say it inside your head." I'm saying, "Outside, with your mouth, say to the other person, 'I want this to be a dialogue.'"

Pete: Oh, I love that. So if I'm coaching someone for the first time, one of the things I'll ask them is, "Have you ever worked with a coach before? An executive coach before or a leadership coach before?" Sometimes they'll say, "Yes," and I'll go, "Great. This is how I approach it." Sometimes they'll say, "No," and I'll very deliberately go, "Okay, great. So, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. And you're welcome to ask me questions." And I'll say that part out loud, so that they realize, "Oh, this is going to be a dialogue. I'm going to have a chance to speak and answer questions, and then Pete's going to give me the opportunity to speak and ask questions." So, I love that idea of saying it out loud. It's almost like acknowledging the elephant in the room. You know, I'm sure we talked about this in the episode we did on difficult conversations, where it's okay to say out loud, "This is an uncomfortable conversation that we have to have." And I think, again, just to highlight the word "conversation". It's a conversation, which means multiple people have to talk.

Jen: Pete, I am a guest on podcasts other than this one from time to time. And when I am guesting on someone else's podcast, I will turn my audio recorder on, on my phone, so that I can listen back to what I said and just like check in with myself and make sure. And I won't say which podcast this was, out loud. But I was a guest on a podcast. We did a forty-five minute session. And when I listened back, I spoke for fifteen minutes.

Pete: No. No, no, no. No, no, no. And you were the guest.

Jen: I was the guest.

Pete: No. No, that's not okay. That's a monologue podcast.

Jen: Yes. Now, when it gets edited, it ends up sounding different. But when I listened back, I could only hear myself because I had my Air Pods in. So the only thing I could hear on my audio was me, I couldn't hear the host.

Pete: Well, you could hear thirty minutes of silence, I guess.

Jen: Thirty minutes of silence.

Pete: Oh my god. Okay, so there's a feature...I cannot remember the plug-in. I'll have to look at it and put it in the Box O' Goodies. I can't, for the life of me, remember the plug-in. But there is a plug-in out there (or there's probably multiple) that exists for like Zoom or Google Meets, and it gives you a percentage breakdown of who's been talking what percentage of the time during a meeting. And it's live. And I am like so about is plug-in, because it is the most confronting mirror that you could possibly imagine of who's doing most of the talking, and you can't hide from it. And so if the goal, which I think often is, is to connect so that you can have a difficult conversation or connect so that you can you share some information...because I'm not saying we're never in a position where we're not able to share information. Like you mentioned earlier, if you're doing a keynote, you're going to be doing a lot of talking. However, it shouldn't be 100%.

Jen: Right.

Pete: It shouldn't be 100%.

Jen: Wow, wow, wow. Okay, wait, can I reveal an offline story to our listeners?

Pete: Sure.

Jen: A couple weeks ago, you were doing a keynote. And you were like, "Jen, can I send you,"...you already know what I'm going to say.

Pete: I do.

Jen: You were like, "Jen, can I send you a voice memo draft of the keynote?" "Sure, send it on over." So I sent you some notes, and I was like, "Pete, it's great. But it would be so much better if it was more interactive throughout." And then, you came back and were like, "I knew that. I knew that, because that is my style. I don't know what it was about how the event organizer explained it to me, but I stepped away from my own style for a second. And I just needed that permission to put it back in and make it more interactive throughout, instead of waiting until the end to give other people a chance to talk." So even with people who are expert communicators, like you, we need the reminders from time to time.

Pete: Oh yeah. This applies to me too. Monologue meetings, this applies to me too. I mean, it even applies to you and I and our podcast.

Jen: 100%.

Pete: Sometimes I'll say, "I feel like I'm talking too much." Or I guess over two hundred and fifty-odd episodes, we've gotten pretty good at going, you know, like we're playing tennis, to your point. We're volleying the conversation between one another. And yet I still, to your point, I recorded a version of a keynote that was too much monologue, I think was the...you framed your feedback so generously, but essentially what you were saying was, "Too much monologue, Pete. Too much monologue."

Jen: And how do I know that? Because I see myself in you. Excuse me while I put my steamroller away.

Pete: Yes. Ah, that's funny. I do think that so much of where this comes from, it often comes from a good place. It comes from a place of, "I really want to communicate in a way that is clear. I want to get the point across that I've pre-thought about. And I am afraid of what the other person might think. Perhaps I'm afraid that if I do stop talking, that they might say something and I don't know how to respond to it." And so I think, unconsciously, we fill the space with our own voice because we're afraid of many things, particularly what the other person might think.

Jen: Isn't that the way it always comes back to, "What is this other person going to think of me?" And it turns out, if you paused and gave them a chance to speak, you might find out.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.