The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 256 - Children’s Books

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jennifer.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: So, I've been reading some children's books of late.

Jen: Ah, yes.

Pete: I'm entering the world of reading children's books. And already, I have a learning from these children's books, which is kind of meta given the context of what I want to talk to you about. But I want to talk about the learnings that adults can gain from children's books.

Jen: I am so here for this conversation. Yes. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, so let me try and paint the context and send us on a direction or a jumping off point of where I was thinking. I recently have been reading kids books, that is the first piece of information. And I've been observing in these kids books and noticing in these kids books that certain books actually speak, I feel like they speak to me more than they're speaking to Ollie because he can't understand. He's just looking at the colors and the pictures. And so, he can't understand the words. And so, I've been kind of like noodling on this idea of: Who are the books actually for? Are they for me, the adult, the parent? Or are they for Ollie, the child, the kid? And so, that's kind of one thing I've been thinking about. As it relates to this, I ran a workshop for a program that you run, an amazing program called Reboot, and had a room full of ridiculously inspiring and smart and creative and intelligent people. And we were talking about, as leaders in the creative industry, how might we show up with more intention in the way that we lead and create our work? And we were talking about our age-old favorite questions, which we've borrowed from Seth Godin and many others, "Who's it for? And what's it for?" And as we were talking about getting really clear on who your work is for, one of the participants said, "What if I have like two separate people? Or can it be also be for me and for someone else? Like there's a conflict here, I feel like, where I have two audiences." And I said, "You know, Jen once said to me, 'There's a second question to who's it for, which is: Who else is it for?'" And A., I realized, I don't think we ever recorded an episode on that. And then B., I was like, "Oh, that's what kids books are. They're for children. But the who else it's for is also the parent, the adult."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I think that also applies to, you know, kids TV shows. Like, there's a whole world of multiple audiences through the same medium. So, I'm like curious about what you think about all this.

Jen: I love it so much. I love kids books. I loved reading to Cate. Cate continues to be obsessed with books. She's thirteen now, but she can't put her books down. It's just the best.

Pete: Can I just really quickly clarify? Is it normal where you might get like three pages into a children's book and just be like, "Oh my god, I'm going to cry. Like, this book is..."

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Right, okay.

Jen: Are you speaking of, "I love you forever. I love you for always. As long as I'm living, my baby will be."

Pete: Oh my god, no. I wasn't speaking of that. But there's a few in our bookshelf, and I get halfway through it, and I just like start crying. And Ollie's looking at me like, "What are you doing, dad?"

Jen: Oh, that is so normal.

Pete: Okay, good. Good, good, good.

Jen: Okay, when I was pregnant with Cate, some friends of mine threw me a baby shower. And they had people bring a book, each inscribed to the baby. And at that time, we did not know anything about the baby. We told the doctors we didn't want to know. You know, life's last great surprise, as my husband likes to call it. So, at that time, the baby was called Mystery, so people inscribed books to Mystery. And what's so interesting...and I love giving books as gifts. When you give a book as a gift to someone else's baby, it says so much about what you value, what you think is important, the life lesson, the legacy, the ideas that you want that child to associate with you. Like, there's so much intention behind giving the gift of a book to a child.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, wow. I don't think I've ever thought about it like that. But you're so right. You're so right.

Jen: Yes, which is why I like to give Beautiful Oops, which is a book about creativity. I love to give that to people because I'm like, "I want my relationship with your child to be about making things together, and being artistic and creative and finding interesting solutions to things that look like problems but they don't have to be problems. Like, that's how I want our relationship to go."

Pete: I love it. I love it. That's great. And so in that context, the book is, again, it's like the who's it for is ultimately the child. It's a book for the child, so that they can hopefully have it read to them or eventually read it themselves and get a lot of joy out of it. And it's for the parents, in that they're going to be the one reading it to them. Maybe they're going to be the one that is passing forward those ideas beyond just the book itself, based on the fact that they've read it and now they're thinking about more creativity, or whatever it is. And so just this notion, like I feel like the kids book is one example of many of when we are creating something or when we are doing something, you and I talk about all the time, the first thing that we do is we usually write, "Who's it for? And what's it for?" And we try and get as clear as possible about, "Who am I communicating to? And what am I hoping to communicate?" Because only then, can we then craft or change the way we communicate, based on those two questions. Especially the "who", right? Like, I'm going to communicate to a child very differently to how I'm going to communicate to an adult. To me, that's the most easy to understand example of why "who's it for" is so important. Or you communicate to a dog differently to how you communicate to a human being, because who it is for is very different, and so you've changed the way you communicate. So all that to say, I've just been nerding out about this a lot. But then, the "who else" part has become interesting for me. And is there always a "who else"? Or is there just only sometimes a "who else"? Is that like the next level ninja version of the "who's it for" question?

Jen: Well, to the point that the person in your Reboot call earlier today was making, I think...I'm sure there are exceptions, but I do think there's always a, "Who else is it for?" And if you are the kind of person who always puts someone else before you, the answer to, "Who else is it for," is, "Me."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I've just found that that's really useful in my own work, where I'm like, you know, making new things all the time. And I'm very clear about how much I want to give to my clients. And, you know, I would do anything for them. So the "who else is it for", I have to ask myself, "Where am I in this? Oh, so it's for me too, because I get a chance to learn and I get a chance to witness their growth." So I'm not saying the answer is always, "Me." But if you're someone who has a habit of erasing yourself from your own creations, it's a good way to get back on track.

Pete: It's a great point. I feel like...I mean, it is probably too sweeping a statement to say there's always an element of, "It's for you," in everything, because maybe not for everything. But I feel like so often, especially in a creative pursuit, part of "who's it for" is, "You." You know, like this podcast is a perfect example. It is for a specific group of people who listen to the podcast and don't necessarily want ideas or guests, who are perhaps time poor and only want to listen to a twenty-minute podcast, who enjoy thinking out loud and noodling and ideating and opening doors and turning on lights, metaphorically. And yet, it's also for us. It's also for you and me. Like, I would do this podcast if no one was listening, because it helps me learn and think and grow, because I get to learn and think and grow from you and with you.

Jen: That feeling is mutual.

Pete: Aww, isn't that nice?

Jen: And you know, this podcast is our guarantee that we get time together every week. Even as our lives are so busy, if we commit to this podcast, I'm going to see you every week. You are stuck with me, Shepherd.

Pete: Happy to be stuck, happy to be stuck. Five and a bit years later, we're still going. Okay. The other thing that came up actually in this session that I ran this morning, again, with your amazing group of people, was this idea of demographics versus psychographics. So, we were talking about the "who's it for" and that when you first hear that question or when you first write down, "Who's it for," it's very easy to default to things like demographics. Like, "Oh, it's for this person, who lives in this area, and is interested in these three things. That is who it's for." "It's for a group of leaders working at this company, in this town, and they are led by this leader." Like, that would be a really easy answer for me to come up with if I was thinking about a workshop. And that might be considered like a demographic. And we were talking about the importance of the "who's it for" question, or the like, the next layer down from that is, "Can you understand the psychographics of the person?" And so, we had a conversation about like, "What the hell even is a psychographic? And what does that even mean?" So I just pulled it up real quick, because I articulated what I thought it was and then I was like, "You know what? I feel like I want to double check that I got that right." So according to the ol' Oxford Dictionary (or Google, as it were), they describe psychographics as, "The study and classification of people according to attitudes, aspirations, and other psychological criteria." So, I think about this as, if I can understand my audience, my who's it for, in terms of: What are their fears? What are their hopes? What are their goals? What are their aspirations? What is it that they're driven by or motivated by? So that, if I'm delivering a workshop for them or trying to communicate something to them, I can meet them where they're at from a psychological perspective, not just from a demographic perspective. So, I could make a joke about, "Oh, isn't it fun that we all live in Melbourne? And the weather is terrible in Melbourne," or whatever it is that I choose to joke about from a demographic perspective, or reference. But more importantly, if you can tap in to someone's psychographics, someone's attitude, someone's aspirations or goals or fears, I feel like you're more inclined to connect with them. And then thus, hopefully, create the change you're hoping to create.

Jen: Yes. And this is a great...just to bring it back to children's books for a second.

Pete: Please.

Jen: This is a great way to think about how you select a book to gift to a child, is to think about the psychographics of the parent.

Pete: Yes. And I also just realized, this is the reason some books make me cry.

Jen: Right. That is correct, Peter.

Pete: Yeah. They speak to the psychographics of like the things that I value, or the attitudes or aspirations I have about myself and my family. Huh. Whoa.

Jen: Yes. Children's books cut to the core of our humanity. They do it in funny ways. They do it in quirky ways. They do it in very well-disguised ways. But at the end of the day (or at the end of the book), there is something there to wrap itself around your heart and tug a little bit.

Pete: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. Same is true of kids TV shows. I mean, Bluey is a very, very popular TV show in Australia. And I believe it's made its way around the world.

Jen: Blue's Clues? Is that what you mean?

Pete: No, no. Bluey.

Jen: Oh, I don't know it. My child's thirteen now, so I don't know it.

Pete: Your child's thirteen, that would be why, yeah. Bluey is actually written and created based in Brisbane, where I am, by an Australian guy. And anyway, it's become like almost the pinnacle of a show that is for a child but also for the parents. And there's all these lessons about, you know, mental health from the parents' perspective, that are like interwoven throughout this show. And there's people that have written blogs and articles about like, "Oh my god, I'm like bawling my eyes out watching Episode Three of Season Two of Bluey," and like the meaning behind it all, and it's a whole thing.

Jen: That sounds so wonderful, Pete. And I would welcome Bluey into my home. And at the same time, I have to just shake my fist at the Australians because you also sent us The Wiggles.

Pete: Oh my god, did we really?

Jen: Yes, you did.

Pete: The Wiggles are Australian?

Jen: "Toot-toot, chugga-chugga, big red car." The Wiggles played...I kid you not, Pete...The Wiggles played Madison Square Garden in New York City.

Pete: No way.

Jen: It was sold out. I could not get a ticket to see The Wiggles.

Pete: I did not actually pause to reflect on the fact that The Wiggles are Australian. And I didn't know that. I definitely didn't know that. And they clearly made it big in America. I...maybe this will age me. The Wiggles are still going, and still going strong. And I distinctly remember as a child, seeing The Wiggles live, myself.

Jen: Oh my god.

Pete: Yes. Yes. It wasn't at Madison Square Garden. It was like a little community town hall when they were a bit smaller.

Jen: Yeah, well, they're a big deal now. I believe there is a woman Wiggle now.

Pete: There is. There has been a change up and a shake up, yep. They've definitely shaken the, uh...I mean, they've been going around for so long. Some of them are getting a bit old to be, you know, jet-setting to Madison Square and jiggling around the stage, driving their big red car.

Jen: Ah, yeah, I'll never forgive you Australians for that.

Pete: Very funny. Very funny. So I feel like I've made this point, but I guess the thing I'm noodling on a lot is, I've spent a lot of time talking to leaders at the moment about, "How do we communicate to our teams in a way that is most effective? How do I enroll my team in the change I'm trying to create as a leader?" And inevitably, the first question I will have them reflect on is this idea of, "Who's it for?" And I think baked into that question, like we've been referring to around the psychographics and the demographics, is just a whole bunch of empathy...

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: ...is, "Can I understand the kinds of people that I'm communicating to? And once I've done that, can I now communicate to them in a way that means something to them?" And I've just been really slapped in the face, in a great way, by how well children's books do this. It's the perfect articulation or demonstration of understanding your audience, so that you can communicate to them in a way that means something to them, whether that's through contrasting colors and bright pictures (as has been the case in a lot of these books), or through like meaningful stories that connect to an adult in a way that speaks to your psychographic. I just, I'm seeing it everywhere, every time I look at a bookshelf now.

Jen: I have a feeling that on the heels of this episode, we are going to get a bunch of emails from listeners, telling us their favorite children's book.

Pete: I'm open to it. I'm here for it.

Jen: Which will prove your theory to be true, that children's books are actually written for adults. I also have one additional thought about children's books, which is, the point of a children's book is so clear. Like, you know what it is about. And in a sentence, you can really summarize what you were supposed to get from it. And maybe there's a whole other episode about distilling the content of children's books in our future. But as you're talking about communication that is empathetic and in alignment with the person you are speaking to's needs, wants, desires, fears, hopes, dreams, I wonder if there's also this component of succinctness and clarity in the takeaway, that is worth thinking about.

Pete: Oooh. Absolutely. The nudge I gave your group...not to keep bringing it back to that session this morning, but I will...was, "When thinking about the question of 'what's it for', which is the natural follow-on, in my mind, from 'who's it for', can you summarize your answer to that question in one sentence or on the back of a napkin? What are you hoping to achieve through this book, podcast, idea, movie, show, audition, email, whatever it is, can you summarize what you're trying to do in one sentence?" And I think you're right, I think children's books do that beautifully.

Jen: Oh my goodness, Peter, at the beginning of the session you ran for my Reboot group, you asked them to draw a picture of how they were at the beginning of the session. And then, you asked them to illustrate, at the end of the session through a drawing, how they are now, which is another way to utilize the idea in a children's book to help you gain clarity, is to take something that's really hard to put into words or that just feels difficult to communicate and put it in a picture.

Pete: I did. And that drawing exercise is a version of something I do often in my workshops, which might be a check-in at the start and a check-in at the end. The punch line behind that is, I don't want to tell people what they learned or got out of any given session. Instead, I want them to, hopefully, realize it or discover it themselves. That is ultimately what those sessions are for.

Jen: Well, I guess the moral of this story, Pete, is that we all have a lot to learn from children's books. So let's head to our local library, check them out, and see what life has to teach us.

Pete: It's true. And if you need me, I'll be over in the nursery, picking from Ollie's bookshelf, and reading book after book after book, attempting not to cry while doing so.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.