The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 272 - Big Scary Things

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: I guess I'm technically your co-host, but I'm coming at you today with a client posture in need of a coach.

Pete: Okay. I mean, technically? Or like, literally, you are my co-host. But we can go we technically.

Jen: Okay, technically and literally, but now figuratively, I'm going to be your client, because I need just a little pep talk or like another point of view or a light turned on. I am about to do what I'm calling a "big scary thing". And I decided to do it, so I'm not talking myself out of it. But the amount of time the big scary thing is taking up in my thoughts is wild.

Pete: Alright. Well, as we say on this podcast, let's unpack it, Jennifer. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Oh, I already am relieved. Just having said almost nothing, I already feel better. Okay, Coach Pete, I guess I should set the context. But my other guess is that the context doesn't even really matter, because it's just the whole concept of big scary thing that's the point...but here's the big scary thing.

Pete: Alright, hit me.

Jen: For well over a decade, like since Facebook was invented, I've had a private secret Facebook group for my studio, where we all stay connected and talk to each other. And I decided to, years ago, maybe seven years ago, find a different platform and get us off of Facebook. And it took me seven years to find the platform, but I found it. And in about two weeks, I am migrating lots of people off of Facebook and onto this new platform. I made the decision. I've committed. It is happening.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And so, the big scary thing is a totally new home for the studio. I'm trying to be the pied piper, and I'm hoping that the people are going to follow me and migrate with me over to this new platform. And then once they're over there, there's a brand new offering, something totally new that (as far as I am aware) nobody else in my industry has ever done.

Pete: Awesome.

Jen: So, it just feels scary.

Pete: It sounds awesome, objectively. I guess my first question, Client Jen, is, what's scary about it?

Jen: Ah. So, I'm scared that I'm delusional and I don't know it.

Pete: Hmm. Oh, say more. Say more.

Jen: I'm like, "Okay, well, everyone has agreed with me for a long time that we should get off of Facebook. But they're also used to it. I think they like me enough to come with me. But am I delusional? What if they don't like me? What if they're like, 'Oh, thank god, we don't have to listen to this lady anymore.' And I show up on the new platform, and it's just me all by myself?"

Pete: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, that feels scary. It also strikes me that you said, "They all agree with me that we should move platforms." And like, that is a true statement from not just recently, but for years. I feel like I was in a workshop at your studio, pre-pandemic, and people were like, "Oh my god, get us off the Facebook group, Jen. Get us off the Facebook group."

Jen: That is true. That is a true fact...as opposed to a false fact.

Pete: Or a feeling. I'm feeling like facts versus feelings. Like, to me, fear is so often a feeling. (I'm just trying to figure out if I believe that.) Yeah. Fear is like a feeling or a story we tell ourselves, whereas a fact is something that we can't dispute, in a way. I'm thinking of...I'm using Jen Waldman to coach Jen Waldman...but Jen Waldman once said to me, "When thinking about something scary or processing feedback, use air quotes or use quotes," not even air quotes, "to get clear on what was actually said."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Versus the story we're telling ourself about what is happening. So a really basic example I often use is, if someone says to me, "Hey, Pete, I really like your new shoes," one way of me interpreting that is like, "Oh, so they hate every other pair of shoes I've ever worn? How like...this is absurd." Which is stupid, because that's just a story I told myself. What they actually said was, "Hey, Pete, I really love your shoes." So like the quote that sticks out for me is, "They all agree with me."

Jen: Yes, touche. They do. They do.

Pete: I feel like there's an "and" coming though or a "but", which I'm open to.

Jen: Well, it's like, it's the fear onion.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So, we have not talked about the fear onion in maybe a couple of years, Pete. So, for people who weren't around when we chopped this onion the first time, the idea behind the fear onion is that just when you feel you understand a layer of your fear, you peel it back. And then, there's another fear underneath it. And then, there's another fear underneath it. And we have many times, Pete, come to the conclusion that at the center of the fear onion is the fear of people's opinions.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: So, part of my fear of being delusional is not really that I think I'm delusional. Because I'm not delusional.

Pete: No.

Jen: But it's, "If this fails, what will people think of me?" Hmm, yes,

Pete: Mmm. Yes, yes. Now I feel like we're getting somewhere. What's your answer to that question? "If this fails, what will people think of me?"

Jen: Like, projecting myself into someone else's head?

Pete: Yes. As in like, what might they think of you?

Jen: Huh. Well, on one hand, someone might think, "Wow, she's a risk taker."

Pete: Yep.

Jen: "Good for her for giving it the old college try." Now, if it were me coaching me, I would say, "Oh, you'd get a great story out of that, which you would use to build something else."

Pete: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

Jen: "There's a great keynote waiting to be written on the heels of that failure."

Pete: There is. I like that response. What else might they say though?

Jen: Well, if it succeeds, they might say...and this is why I'm doing the big scary thing. Because my vision for this thing is that when people get there, they say, "This is the best place that has ever existed on the internet."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So if it succeeds, that is my hope for what people will say. And that hope, honestly, has carried me to the point where I've made this decision that I'm not turning back on.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Because I do believe there is a possibility that that is an outcome.

Pete: Yeah. I agree. So that point reminds me of the whole, you know, decisions and outcomes aren't the same thing. And so it strikes me as a part of the nudge or the question, is, how do you increase the probability that that's the response? That the response is, "Jen Waldman, this is the best place on the internet," what does it look like to increase the likelihood of that being the case? Because I feel like you've already thought about some things that fit this criteria, so lay it on me.

Jen: Well, I am currently reading (at your recommendation) Unreasonable Hospitality?

Pete: Yes. Will Guidara, what a book.

Jen: Yeah. And I am seeking to embody the notion of service and hospitality, and making people feel seen and heard and valued and that they matter and that they belong, so I am in a current state of learning about how other people have done that in ways that have been life changing for the people they interact with. So, I'm in a learning phase right now.

Pete: I like that. I like that. You're in the sponge mode.

Jen: Yep. Sponge mode.

Pete: Is there any learnings from, in terms of building on those learnings that you are now seeking, are there learnings from what has worked and what has not worked on Facebook at the moment, that you can seek to rectify/address over in this new corner of the internet? (Which, I am dubbing "the best place that's ever existed on the internet", to use your words.)

Jen: Yes. Well, this is why it took me seven years, really, since the first time I said, "Should we get off of Facebook?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: Because I didn't want to just go over to another place, like same problems in a different location. I wanted a solution to address some of the things that were making me annoyed about being on Facebook and that I know other people found annoying about being on Facebook, beyond the Facebook-ness of it all, like buried threads, and hard to search, and you find out about an event the day after it happened because it didn't show up in your feed in time, and notifications are annoying, and it would be easier to have them in a format that you selected as opposed to a little red dot in the corner of your screen. So...

Pete: Right.

Jen: You know, this is actually giving me a lot of confidence.

Pete: Good.

Jen: That I really did think this through from so many different angles, and the decision that I've made...which, I feel like is something you're going to say in a minute, so let me see if I can, you know, get ahead of that. The decision that I made was based on really good information. And regardless of the outcome, it's a really good decision. Hmm, I

Pete: Mmm, mmm, mmm. I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, the process you've been through to make the decision has set you up as best you possibly can. And maybe there's a few things you could do, like you said you might take some learnings from the book Unreasonable Hospitality. But it feels like you've done an excellent job at dramatically increasing the likelihood of this getting a great outcome, i.e. you've had a really awesome process. And like, you know, you could never guarantee 100% likelihood of getting that outcome. So part of the doubt that you have, in my mind, is justified because, yeah, it might not work.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: It might be an awesome decision that led to a not awesome outcome. That's just a reality of probabilistic thinking. Even if it's 99.9% likely to be awesome, there's still a .1% chance that it won't be. So, I think you know that. But the other thing that comes to mind for me is, I mean, the word "delusional" you used a little flippantly, but also like it feels like that's part of the trip or part of the challenge with the situation. And I feel like, you know, well, my interpretation of delusional is that you kind of believe something contrary to facts that tell you something else. And I feel like the facts that you've just outlined aren't contrary to the likelihood of getting that outcome, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like you're actually the inverse of delusional.

Jen: Yeah. You know, this is funny. This is reminding me of something my therapist keeps saying to me. Not to get TMI here but, you know, my fears around making these big business decisions...because, to be clear, it's more than just migrating people over. It is launching an entirely new business in an online format.

Pete: Yeah, massive.

Jen: That the fear that comes up for me, rational or not, is that I've worked so hard for what next year will be twenty years of building this studio in a way that feels like it reflects my values and has been built with so much love and so much integrity, and that, in the blink of an eye, something or someone could take it all away. And, I mean, if history is any guide, that that's not what's going to happen.

Pete: Right. And I would argue that maintaining the status quo is actually more likely to create that outcome, i.e., someone else owning your group, which is Facebook, and owning the access that you have to your group, i.e. they can choose to make certain posts more available to others, they could choose to promote videos as opposed to text, they could choose to, you know, deboost groups and start boosting other things. This is the control they have over their own platform. So actually, I feel like the risk of you losing the ability to influence your people is actually higher if you do nothing.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Like, I feel like that's why there's been this big movement to things like substack things like podcasts over the years for many, many different individuals and organizations, because there's been this recognition that, "I don't actually own my followers or the people that have liked the thing that I am sharing or posting on. And how do I...," I mean, this is why the age-old like email subscriber list is so powerful, because people own their email subscriber list. It's not beholden to someone else who decides whether they get to hear from you or not.

Jen: Yeah. Pete, I think I'm sort of like arriving at an aha moment, which I'd love to unpack and hear your take on.

Pete: Tell me.

Jen: I have done all of the work. I took myself through my STARlMAP map process...which I promise I'm going to share next year, everyone. I created a strategic plan. I set meaningful, purpose-driven goals. I did a pre-mortem. I did a pre-parade. I did research. I sought out advisors. I did everything that I could possibly do to make a good decision. And that doesn't make it less scary.

Pete: Right.

Jen: That feels like the aha moment for me, is like, you can do all of the work and make a really excellent decision and feel confident that you're making a good decision, and it's still scary.

Pete: Petrified, right. I think that is an aha moment. And I think it's a really profound point, which I would argue (which is my bias, because I've thought about it and spoken about it before) echos something that I think about with impostor syndrome. Which is, you know, I feel like I use that term because people know what it means. But I think it's another way of saying a fear, a big scary fear, right? Like, "I'm afraid that I'm not meant to be in this room, and I feel like a bit of a fraud," for example. And I feel like the thing about imposter syndrome or a fear is, anyone who's ever done anything awesome or created a new business or started a new project or written a new book has, at some point, felt like a fraud, felt like an impostor, felt fear. And yet, they've done it anyway. So it's not that there's people out there that are immune to feeling fear when making big scary things, it's that they figure out what to do with it and/or they realize that both things can be true at the same time. Is, "I can be incredibly well-prepared. I can have everything that I have the ability to align aligned. And I could still be petrified. I can absolutely still be petrified." I imagine that, you know, those really excellent athletes who are at the top of their field and have prepared themselves for the biggest game of their lives are still nervous about the big game. It's not that they don't have nerves. It's that they see them, they recognize them for what they are, and then they go and do the thing anyway. They go and execute.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. You know what really does help? Talking about it.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think that would make sense, given what you said about how you have done everything. You have been in your head, building this, thinking about this in so many different capacities that you've probably taken on all of the responsibility (which is a very you thing to do) and fear and doubt and like worry in this like giant backpack of yours. And in talking about it with me and the listeners, it's like we've all taken a little brick out of your backpack and gone, "I can take that one for you."

Jen: Yeah, and I appreciate it. And you know what's funny, Pete? When you and I do episodes like this, where we bring something that we're like truly struggling with and the other person helps us through it, we always have this sort of like vulnerability hangover afterwards, where it's like, "Oh my gosh, are we actually going to release that? That feels so gross and kind of scary."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And what we've learned is that people really get a lot out of hearing us struggle.

Pete: Yeah, I feel like it's relatable. And so, yes, you're probably going to feel tomorrow that you don't want to release this episode.

Jen: ...or right now.

Pete: You're going to feel the fear of doing a big scary thing, because I feel like even talking about this is a big scary thing. And you're also going to dance with it. You're going to release it anyway. And you're going to hold both those two things at once, just like you're going to hold both things at once when you migrate your awesome community over to an even more awesome platform.

Jen: Yep, it's time to do the big scary thing. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.