The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 74 - Proactive/Reactive

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. Pete and I have been having a hoot over in our Facebook group. And if you're not over there, what are you waiting for? We're having very interesting conversations with very interesting people, and we would love to have you. Also, we are dropping exclusive content in that group, like things from the cutting room floor, things you would never hear unless you were a member of our Facebook group. So go to Facebook and type in The Long and The Short Of It, and come join us.

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Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: This is the sixth hour that I've spent on Zoom today. And it's only 11 AM.

Jen: What? …What? Wait, are you, are you joking?

Pete: No, no, not at all. [laughter] This is my life. My life is a big Zoom call and I'd like you to help me unpack it, please. Because I think it relates to this idea of being reactive versus the idea of being proactive. And I know you have some thoughts on that.

Jen: Ooh, yes. Proactive versus reactive. Let's dig in. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, Pete, first of all, I am reacting to what you just said.

Pete: You are!

Jen: Can you, can you give a little context for what...what are you spending six hours on Zoom calls doing?

Pete: I mean, a lot of things. The central theme being holding space, and coaching. So, I have a number of simultaneous projects happening at the moment, all of which are incredible. All of which I feel grateful and lucky to be able to be involved in. And all of which inspire me, energize me, motivate me, to the point where they don't...like, it doesn't feel like work at all. Like, I'm on Zoom at 5 AM. I wouldn't do that unless I loved it. And, I'm on Zoom at 5 AM. [laughter]

Jen: I'm assuming that these projects that you're working on have some international component, and that not everyone involved is on Zoom at 5 AM their local time.

Pete: Right. Exactly.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: So, this is like every corner of the globe. So like, east coast of America, west coast of America, Central America, London and European timezone, and then Australia and Asia Pacific. So...

Jen: Wow.

Pete: I'm talking about global projects that are really, really cool. And like I said, at the moment, the state of the projects requires for me, as one of the head coaches in one of the projects, one of the organizers of another project, one of the facilitators of another project...essentially it requires me to be on Zoom either coaching someone one on one, facilitating a group, or doing a group coaching, and that just involves sitting on Zoom, or standing on Zoom, and being on Zoom, and reacting to what is essentially coming at me from the client, or the student, or the participant in that particular project. What I'm observing in myself (which is what I want you to help me unpack), is the story I tell myself about how that reactive work doesn't feel like progress or meaningful work. And so, by way of example, what I know will happen after this Zoom call is I will feel, or I will hear a story in my head, that I haven't done anything productive. Because I haven't made anything with my hands, I haven't written anything on a whiteboard, I haven't typed anything into a Google Sheet. It feels like...I haven't sent an email. I've literally just been conversing with people on Zoom, holding space, asking questions, being curious. And like, intellectually, I know that's work. That's the work, but it feels reactive. And I'm interested in the story I'm telling myself as a result of that. So, talk to me. What do you hear?

Jen: Okay. I hear so many things. First of all, I'm hearing a meta example. And I know you love things that are meta.

Pete: Yes, I do.

Jen: That in this moment, you are taking five hours worth of experience and synthesizing it into something you are creating, which is this podcast episode.

Pete: Mmm. Okay. Alright, alright. Touche, touche with the meta. [laughter] I love that.

Jen: So I, what I have some questions about are the words you're using and what they actually mean to you. Because what they mean to me might be different, and maybe we can get on the same page about that.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So, okay, first of all, what do you mean when you say reactive?

Pete: That's such a brilliant question, Jen Waldman, that I can't even unpack, so...because every time I seek to unpack it, I'm catching how this might be reframed as proactive. So let me just like throw it out there, then we can squash my own definition. In my head, reactive means reacting to external things. So it's not starting in my head and something I do proactively, it's reacting to external stimuli. And the stimuli, in this case, are other people.

Jen: Okay, that's fair. I want to offer up something that I heard once that I love so much and that I use at the studio, and maybe I've shared it here before, who knows? So, a couple Super Bowls ago...I don't even know if you know what the Super Bowl is.

Pete: I mean, I know what it is.

Jen: It's not a gigantic bowl. It's a football game.

Pete: [laughter] I know what it is.

Jen: A super bowl!

Pete: What you mean to say is two years ago...

Jen: I was watching the Super Bowl and during a timeout, you know, they cut to these puff pieces that they do ahead of time where they will profile a player or, you know, interview someone, or whatever. So they were, they had pre-recorded an interview with the quarterback. And essentially what he was sharing is the "why" behind proactive practice.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And he was talking about how there is a reason we run all of these drills. That we run every single play over and over and over again. That we practice these throws, that we practice these tackles. And we do it over and over again, so that on game day, in this moment, we only have one job and that is to react.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And so I think there is a difference between ineffective reactive and effective reactive.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: You have had to train yourself to be able to hold space for people to share their thoughts and have conversations. So the fact that that is your reaction to someone sharing something is actually kind of amazing to me and, and wonderful, and a finely honed skill set.

Pete: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jen: Now where I'm really interested is in the relationship between proactive and productive. Because what you, what I think I heard you say is that you're exiting these hours feeling like you haven't been productive. So when you say productive, what does that mean? What is productive?

Pete: Yeah, I think this is the, this is the myth worth busting. Because I think it's irrational and illogical, the description or the story I'm telling myself about productive. Which is why we should bust said myth. Because what I think is happening is we (me, in this case) are so conditioned to think that being productive is knocking out a bunch of emails, or hitting things off your to do list, or replying to seven thousand Slack messages, or fill in the blank. That we think of that, what Cal Newport would call shallow work, as being productive.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And so when I don't, when you don't do that, when you literally, essentially, do deep work with someone on Zoom for hours and hours and hours and hours, my brain, for some reason, still thinks I haven't been productive because I haven't ticked off shallow work. Which is: my inbox still has seven unread emails, I need to, like, quickly reply to them. That will feel like I've done something, which is so false because I know, intellectually, even saying this out loud right now, I recognize what is more fueling for me. But, like, more importantly, what is more impactful for the people I seek to serve? Which is the Zoom call. Which is the holding space. Which is not the email. So it's, it's like I'm catching myself be drawn into the lure of shallow work, and that's what makes one "productive", even though I know that's not true.

Jen: Okay. I want to throw yet another idea into the mix here.

Pete: Do it.

Jen: So, many episodes ago, we talked about the urgent, important matrix. And it sounds like you've spent the last five hours in the important, not urgent matrix.

Pete: Yeah, your favorite place.

Jen: I will say that there are some people, and maybe you would identify with this, who need some urgency in their lives. I think of my sister, my middle sister, she thrives on urgent.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So it might not surprise you to know that she works in the news. Breaking news, you know? Uh, that's where she is at her best. So I wonder if there is a way for you...how might you include some important, and urgent in your day, as well as important, not urgent?

Pete: Hmm. I don't have a good answer for that right now, but I like the idea of noodling on that some more. How might one add some urgent, or make space for urgent?

Jen: Can I offer up another way to look at this?

Pete: Absolutely, you can.

Jen: When I think about-

Pete: That's the point.

Jen: When I think about that quadrant in the matrix, the way I define that particular quadrant for myself is: this is work that has a deadline, and it can only be done by me.

Pete: Mmm. Okay. I like that. Has to have a deadline, and has to be done by me. Yeah, that's good.

Jen: So the other stuff that falls into the urgent category are things that have a deadline, but if someone else does them, it's just as good as me doing them.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah, which is interesting because I, like, in the case of the coaching that I'm doing, that is...the deadline is the time that we have the call, and it has to be done by me. Like I'm the, I'm the product, or the service in that case, so it kind of fits that category.

Jen: Wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry, did you just say you are the product? Which I believe is in the word "productive".

Pete: Well played, Waldman, well played. Okay, I think I also uncovered something else that might be worth throwing out there. Is, I have an aversion from a past life (working in corporates, working in startups), I have an aversion to really pointless meetings.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: In fact, I have an aversion, I would say, almost, to meetings in general. [laughter] And I wonder if that's at play here. That I've been conditioned to associate meetings with unproductive time because I experienced an incredible amount of unproductive meetings. And that I'm still, like, my brain is still learning, or coming to grips with the fact that even though it's been a few years, the coaching that I'm doing, the projects that I'm running, the facilitation that's happening, none of that is pointless. None of that is a waste of time. All of that is intentional. All of that is deliberate. All of that is generous. So I'm like, I'm wondering if there's some old conditioning that I need to get rid of there. An old skin to shed, if you like.

Jen: Ah, yes, it sounds like, indeed, there is. And I'm wondering...I'm just looking at like the root of productivity, and is it about producing something? And if the answer to that is yes, does the thing you produce have to be tangible? Like, do you have to be able to hold it in your hand? Or is producing an aha moment for someone as worthy as producing a widget? So I'm curious about that.

Pete: Mmm. It's more, it's more productive, I think. Aha moments are more valuable than widgets, in my mind.

Jen: Hmm. Okay. And then I wanted to look at this from one other lens. You and I both love a company called Intelligent Change. We both use the Five Minute Journal...which, sidebar, I've been doing ever since I said I was going to do it.

Pete: Oh, good!

Jen: I have not missed a day. And I love it, love it, love it. So, yay for that.

Pete: Perfect.

Jen: They also make a product called the Productivity Planner. And in it, their idea of productive is identifying the most important thing, the one most important thing that you want to accomplish in a day, and to make a commitment to do that thing before you do anything else. And I'm curious how that idea might apply to the five hours of Zoom calls.

Pete: I love this because the number one thing on my list...because I still use the, I don't actually use the Productivity Planner but I use the technique in my own notepad, which is to pick one thing and then once you get that one thing done, pick three other things.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And on a day like today, my first thing is the first Zoom call that I have, essentially. Like, or the most important Zoom call out of the five hours. I will say, "Today will be a success if that Zoom call, or that meeting, that facilitation, that coaching goes well.". Like, if I generously serve the people in that room, that's success. I can get over the fact that some of the other meetings around them, the periphery, maybe I was a little bit tired because I focused more on the other one. I can get, I can get over that. But that actually the items two, three, and four are usually the other Zoom calls. So today, for example, the third thing on my list is to record a podcast with Jen Waldman. And so, I'm like trying to train myself into recognizing that it's okay to put "nail a coaching", or "nail a facilitation", or "record a podcast with Jen" on a to do list. It doesn't have to be "reply to that email".

Jen: Yes. Oh, I like this so much. So, I can't wait for you to listen back to this, Peter, because I feel like you are offering up both sides of the argument at the same time.

Pete: I'm, I'm arguing with myself, aren't I? Yeah.

Jen: Yes. Yes. And it's absolutely a delight to behold.

Pete: I recognize in my thrashes that I'm like arguing with myself.

Jen: So I do want to bring this back to the idea of reactive, for a second.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: And this idea that there is a version of reactive that is generous and generative.

Pete: Absolutely.

Jen: And there is a version of reactive that is lying, faking, and hiding.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: So, how might you adopt the former mindset on a more consistent basis than the latter? Like, how can you make reactive something positive?

Pete: The first thing that comes to mind is: the most positive form of reactive that I can think of is to listen.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And to actually listen. And in listening, asking questions or adding to the conversation based on what you are listening to. So you're reacting, in the sense that you're reacting to what's been said. But you're doing it in a generous and generative way, because you're not thinking about something else you're going to say before someone's finished because you have a brilliant insight to add. No, no, you're actually...you're not premeditating what you're going to say. You're actually reacting in a very generous and generative way to what the person is telling you, in that moment. And that...I mean, that's essentially coaching, right?

Jen: Oh, Peter. Right now, here in America, we are in the middle of an election cycle, that where people are just yelling at each other all the time. And when I hear you describing what you are calling "reactive listening"...like, someone starts talking and your reaction is you listen, you really listen, that feels like it could solve a lot of the problems that we're having over here, and maybe even be the answer to world peace.

Pete: Well, it's interesting because I've heard...maybe us? [laughter] I feel like we've spoken about proactive listening, at times.

Jen: We have.

Pete: Which I actually think is the same as what I just described: productive, reactive thinking. Which is, yeah, listening for the sake of actually hearing what someone is saying (i.e. empathy), and then building on that with a question, or a comment, or an assertion in the interest of moving things forward. Hmm.

Jen: [pause] I'm reacting to that by listening. [laughter] Well, I feel like there were quite a lot of lightbulb moments in the last twenty minutes.

Pete: I think so, too. And in the interest of continuing the theme of being meta, I appreciate the way you proactively, and reactively, and generously held space for me on Zoom, asked me questions to move me forward, and we created something in a podcast episode. So this is wild. [laughter]

Jen: You know, this felt very, dare I say it, productive.

Pete: [laughter] Yes. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.