Episode 83 - Constraints
Transcript:
Jen: Hello, Peter. And hello, listeners.
Pete: Hello, Jen. And hello, listeners.
Jen: Well, Peter and I were just listening back to the episode you are all about to hear, which we recorded in February. And Peter, my goodness, we sound so innocent.
Pete: So innocent. It's, it's kind of wild to listen back to this episode.
Jen: The other thing that I found particularly striking, Peter, is how even though we were not living in the Coronavirus pandemic, many of the ideas we talk about around constraints are so applicable right now. And you sort of sound like a fortune teller in this episode, because (listeners, you're about to hear this) he does this whole riff on what it's like to work on Zoom, and to work remotely. And this was back in February.
Pete: Yeah. I mean, it's probably more of a rant than a riff but I appreciate the fortune teller reference.
Jen: Well, in any case, listeners, we really hope that you learn something that you can use in today's episode.
Pete: And speaking of learning, we also wanted to just let you know that our next Learning Lab is coming up on Friday, the 8th of May, 6pm Eastern Time. Which is Saturday, the 9th of May, at 8am in Australian Eastern Standard Time. The topic of conversation that we're going to unpack over the course of one hour is: showing up. You can head to the website thelongandtheshortpodcast.com/learninglab to learn more, to sign up for free, and we hope and would love to see you there to turn listening into learning.
Jen: And now on to this week's episode.
Pete: Hey, Jen.
Jen: Hello, Peter.
Pete: I've been noodling on a theme, a topic, an idea that I think is what you and I would call an old classic.
Jen: Okay...
Pete: In the sense that this is something that you and I have spoken about in a number of episodes in passing, we speak about a lot when we're talking offline...or off-air, or whatever it's referred to as when we're not recording.
Jen: Oh, so it's the things that drive Jen crazy? [laughter]
Pete: I mean, quite possibly. I'm sure we can find something in this topic that drives you crazy. But it's a pretty broad topic, and the topic is just: constraints. I would like to talk to you about constraints.
Jen: Let's do it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.
Pete: Okay, so I didn't have a recent aha moment around constraints. And I know that we've started a few episodes recently with, "I had this aha moment.". [laughter] Although I guess the aha moment was, "Oh, wait, we've never done an episode on constraints, we should probably do that.". Because I talk about them quite a lot in some of the group coaching that I do, I'm sure you talk about them a lot in your world. And what I always find so interesting is I usually start a conversation around constraints with the question of, "What do you think of when you hear the word 'constraints'?". And the responses are always fascinating. Because I would say 80% of the time, people associate that with something negative...
Jen: Hmm.
Pete: ...something restrictive, something like, "Oh, they're shackles. They're things that are in my way. They're restrictions on the work I want to do, or restrictions on the place I want to be.". And very much this like limiting, negative connotation that people have with the word "constraints". And then you get the like 20% of people who are like, "Oh, I think constraints can be used to my advantage. Like, I think they're actually kind of like leverage.". Which is what you and I have spoken about a lot, around: actually, what if constraints are assets?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: What if constraints are beautiful? There's a wonderful book that we've both read, called A Beautiful Constraint, which is such a good book.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: So that's the, I guess, the jumping off point. Is like, the different ways of thinking about constraints is always interesting to me. And I'm curious how that manifests itself in your world, because I feel like your world is one (your world being, you know, the arts), is one where constraints are...you're dealing with constraints all day, every day.
Jen: True. Well, when I think about constraints, what I think is: within structure, lies freedom.
Pete: Ooh, tell me more.
Jen: Well without constraints, time, space, resources, ideas are not defined. And constraints allow you to create definition around the thing you're working on. So, you know, I'm sure we've used the New York diner metaphor in the past, for something.
Pete: Have we?
Jen: But like, it's like, it's so hard to order at a New York diner because they give you a menu with no constraints. It's like, every possible kind of cuisine, made every possible kind of way. So unless you come in with a craving, it can be really challenging to find something to eat.
Pete: This is so true.
Jen: Whereas if you just give yourself the constraint of like, "I'm only ordering an egg dish today,", it's so much easier to figure out what you want to do.
Pete: That's so funny, because when I was last in New York, and you and I went to a diner for breakfast, and I was confronted with this enormous menu, and you were like, "What are you going to get?". And I said, "Whatever you get, because I have no idea how to read this thing. There's too many options.". [laughter]
Jen: Right? It's too much, it's too much. But once you have some constraints, like you're only going to order from this one page, it's easier to find your preferences.
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Jen: And then when you know your preferences, you can start making decisions in alignment with what you prefer.
Pete: Ooh, I love this. Okay, so deliberately creating constraints for ourselves so that we can move forward.
Jen: This podcast is a great example, to be meta about it.
Pete: (Ah, yes.)
Jen: So, we have established pretty tight constraints for ourselves. Meaning we do not discuss ahead of time what we're going to be talking about.
Pete: [laughter] Yep. Surprise!
Jen: We start recording. And about twenty-two to twenty-five minutes later, we stop recording. And we do not ramble on to forty minutes and then edit things out. We, you know…maybe we, in each episode, have one or two minutes of pauses that are edited out, or like a sentence. But basically the constraint is: speak to the point in the allotted amount of time.
Pete: Yes. So, time constraints. So this is interesting, because I was going to ask, "What are the different types of constraints?". So, I think time constraints are so...like, they're so good. And I can think of so many examples where they work to one's advantage. So I remember, I once wrote a blog post that was titled "There's no time for a witty title", and it was a meta post about how much you can get done when you deliberately create a constraint for yourself. And I recall, you did something similar...
Jen: That's right.
Pete: ...where you did a blog post in, like, eight minutes, or something absurd?
Jen: It was less than that. But yes, you're right.
Pete: Less than eight minutes? Sorry. [laughter]
Jen: And when I have a scary email I'm going to send...
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: ...I compose it in two minutes.
Pete: Which is wild.
Jen: I get two minutes to write it.
Pete: We've talked about before, the Pomodoro technique, Jen, which is from one of our favorite resources by Intelligent Change, the Productivity Planner. And the Pomodoro technique is where you give yourself twenty-five minutes to work on something, and then give yourself a five minute break. So essentially, what it's telling you to do is give yourself a time constraint on something. And then you think about Parkinson's law...and I know I'm just throwing a bunch of stuff out there. But you think about Parkinson's law, which dictates that a task will sort of expand or shrink to the time that we are locked to it. So if I give myself twenty minutes to write a blog post, I'll write a blog post in twenty minutes. If I give myself three days, it'll probably take me three days to write the blog post. So all of these interesting ideas and concepts all come back to the one idea, which is that time constraints can be an asset.
Jen: Okay, I have a real life example of this, from this week.
Pete: Go.
Jen: So a client of mine is putting herself forward for a job opportunity. And we were working on the, what she was going to present. And I took a look at her website, and I was like, "I don't think this website is going to work. I don't think this speaks to your big idea, or the change you're seeking to make in this particular arena. I think you need a different website. And time is ticking. Like, it needs to happen now.". And about twenty-four hours later, she sent me the new website...
Pete: Wow.
Jen: ...which was beautiful. The copy was well written, it was in her voice, it was full of purpose and intention. And then she said, "I don't think I could have done this if I had more time.". I'm
Pete: Mmm. So good. So good. It's something we hear time and time again in the altMBA, the online leadership workshop that you and I have spoken about a few times, and I am involved in. That people, time and time again, get to the end of that month and go, "Wow. I didn't realize how much you could get done in a short period of time.".
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: Mmm. Okay, so time constraints being one. What are some other, like, types of constraints?
Jen: Well, when you're coming to projects: budget.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: And sometimes, you can offer yourself different constraint options. Like, we're looking at doing this project...here is the $50,000 version, here's the $100,000 version. How does the financial constraint allow us to be innovative, and put our best work forward?
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: So, budgetary constraints are very useful. And again, the idea of defining what you're working on. So if you wait until later in the process to start thinking about money, you have failed at the beginning of the project to really define what it is.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: So I find constraints to just be so useful, in that regard.
Pete: And so useful up front, from what you're saying. It's like, let's get clear on what our constraints are up front, so that we can leverage them.
Jen: Okay, here's another example. (I don't know if we've mentioned this enough.) Seth Godin has a wonderful journal called The ShipIt Journal...
Pete: Oh, yeah.
Jen: ...which is essentially a workbook for people who are working on a project, to ensure that they ship their project. And essentially, the whole methodology is: get your constraints upfront. Because if you wait until the end to ask everyone who needs to put certain constraints in place, then you're never going to ship the project.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: Get all the constraints upfront, and then work within those constraints.
Pete: Mmm. I like this. A constraint that I think about a lot is...I'm trying to work it out, if it's skill-based constraints, or knowledge-based constraints, maybe it's the same thing. And so, let me try and unpack an example. There's a, there's a, I'm sure there's a great example in the book, A Beautiful Constraint, that talks about the...the first webpage that they built for Google was designed so ridiculously simplistically, and minimally, because the level of their coding ability (their skill) was so basic that they didn't know how to do anything else.
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: And so they whipped up this really, really basic website with, like, two buttons: Google and I'm Feeling Lucky. And as a result, now they win, like, awards for their minimal design.
Jen: Mm-hmm. And it's iconic.
Pete: Yeah, and it's iconic. And then I think about, you know, in the, in the instance of you and I...I think about this often, the first time I, you said to me, "Would you come into the studio when you're in New York, and speak to a room full of actors?". And I was like...I mean, it was sort of the Imposter Two-Step. I was like, "But what do I possibly have to say to these people? I don't know anything about that industry.". And you said, "Exactly. That's the point. You don't have any baggage. You don't know the way that this system, if you like, this industry, thinks, and acts, and communicates, and works. And that's an asset.". And so the constraint of my lack of knowledge was actually an advantage.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: And you, you hear people talk about beginner's mind all the time. Which is, even if you know something really well, or you know a problem really well, it's really useful if you think about it from a beginner's mind, because you'll start to see new opportunities, and ideas, and possibilities that you're blind to because of your existing knowledge. So, I think beginner's mind is a beautiful way to look at approaching things because of constraints.
Jen: Ooh, I love that. Right now, I'm thinking about Lin-Manuel Miranda, who I believe could single-handedly save the world.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: But I'm thinking specifically about, you know, how long it took for him to write the opening number of his masterpiece, Hamilton. And that his partners, specifically his director, Tommy Kail, after a while was like, "You owe me songs on these dates, because we can't wait four years for every song to be written.". Now I'm making up the number of years, but it was like, it was multiple years that it took him to work the opening number. And having an outside source, a trusted source, apply constraints that perhaps he didn't think to give himself or couldn't give himself (I don't know what the backstory is there), but having that outside source resulted in this masterpiece.
Pete: Mmm. Ooh, that's...okay, that's really fascinating. Which is, who is responsible for creating the constraints? Is it...I think a lot of the time it's yourself, you're creating constraints for yourself. Hopefully in a good way, intentionally. But then also, to your point, what does it look like to have other people create constraints for you? Hmm.
Jen: Well, I know you and I do this for each other all the time. We don't always speak about it in these terms, but we are constantly doing this for each other. For example, I told you about a list that I needed to make, and you sent me a Google Sheet that had some of it already populated. And then you asked me the question, "Anything missing here?". [laughter] That was a constraint.
Pete: Yeah. Yeah, I actually gave you the constraint. Because the thought of doing the list could have been so big and infinite, and you could have taken it in so many different directions...I thought, what if I just gave you a Google Doc that's already started? That's your constraint. [laughter]
Jen: Yes, but now I have the constraint of: I know what format it's in.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: I wasn't planning to do it in a Google Doc. I was doing it in my mind, you know.
Pete: Of course you were.
Jen: So now, I have it in the, in the Google spreadsheet, but also the constraint that you are waiting for my reply.
Pete: Mmm. Yeah, it's like the tension of what constraints can do...
Jen: Yes.
Pete: ...the generous tension: that it sparks and invokes action of some kind, and the tension that comes around that action. That's, yeah, interesting. I didn't even realize I was doing that when I sent that to you.
Jen: Yeah. So, thanks. Thanks for that. I...you said something earlier that I want to circle back to, which is that a constraint does not equal a restriction.
Pete: Hmm.
Jen: And I want to call out that sometimes, depending on your personality...like for me, restrictions imposed by other people are amazing for me. Because the second someone tells me I'm restricted from doing something, I am going to do everything I can to poke a hole in the logic behind that restriction, which helps me deepen my conviction about the thing that I believe in.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: But for some people, having an outside source impose a restriction on something can be very debilitating.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: Now I know for me, it's motivating. But what is that like for you?
Pete: Well, it's interesting. I think...my mind went to the restrictions that one places on themself around social norms, and laws, and ways of operating in society. Like, I place a restriction on myself that I'm not going to break the law, for example, which is a restriction in that sense.
Jen: Uh, that's a good one.
Pete: It's a bit of a trivial example, because that's not what you're asking. So for me...no, I don't think I have that. That gene that I know a few people have, and you in particular, which is like, "If someone tells me not to do something, I'm definitely going do it.". I'm just...I don't know. I guess I think about it in the sense of, "Why are they telling me that I can't do that thing?". Like I try and unpack it a little bit, I guess, in typical me fashion. I would be curious about why that restriction has been placed. And then whether it's something that I believe is actually a restriction, or is it a story that that person is telling themself is a restriction? So, an example...I get asked often, "So, the work you do, you know, is it like mostly in-person? Are you coaching people, and running workshops, and facilitating all in-person?". And I'm like, "Ah, no. You know, 85% of the work I do is probably remote. It's through Zoom and Slack.". And you can sort of see that jar people.
Jen: Hmm.
Pete: And they, they seek to, I think in their head, and also sometimes verbally, restrict that thought process, or that notion by saying, "Oh, but you miss a bunch of stuff by not being with people in-person, right? Like, so what would it look like if you did more in-person stuff?". And kind of, I guess, try to impose that restriction on me, that constraint of: in-person is better, essentially, that belief that they have. And I don't see that and go, "Well, let me prove you wrong.". I actually see that and go, "Well, let me get curious about that. What are you actually saying? Why are you saying that?". And the response I usually come back to is, I don't think they quite realize just how much you can do, using Zoom and Slack. I don't think they've experienced being facilitated in a Zoom room, or running a workshop for eight hundred people, or a conference for eight hundred people through Zoom, because that's very new, and it's like very, I guess, innovative, in a way. And the projects I'm involved in are kind of innovative, in that sense. So for me, it's getting curious about why they might be saying that, as opposed to, "I'm going to prove you wrong.". That's the short version of the long winded thrash.
Jen: (That's the long and the short of it.) Uh, in the context of the work that I'm doing with artists, very often, an actor will get a restrictive note that's articulated in the negative. We were just talking about this in class last night, that someone got a note in an audition, "Can you just stop moving? Just like, don't move.". And that's a restriction. Like, you are restricted from moving. So what we were talking about was: well, how could you turn that into a constraint?
Pete: Ooh.
Jen: So the constraint is: find stillness. That's something that you can actually do.
Pete: Love it. Yes. Ooh, this is good. So what I'm hearing is, there's a difference between restrictions and constraints. And that constraints are almost more...they're more of a gift, more of an invitation. They're more generous.
Jen: Yes.
Pete: Whereas a restriction feels like a roadblock, a direction, an opinion, in a way, as opposed to an invitation to try something, to step into something, to add a constraint here so that you might do something a little bit differently. Mmm.
Jen: I might suggest (and I don't know if I agree with myself yet), that constraints help create things, and that restrictions are there to stop things from happening.
Pete: I absolutely agree with that. I think constraints are fundamental to the creation of things. I don't know if you can create something without a constraint.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: So what that makes me realize, and think about, in hearing you say that, is the notion of "can, if", which I think comes up in the book, A Beautiful Constraint. And the idea is: in so many contexts, be it corporates, startups, performing arts, life, relationships, whatever, our default posture is "no, because". So, "No Jen, you can't do that, because blah, blah, blah. Let me, like, push back on that idea.". And that is a restriction. Versus "can, if", which I think feels like using constraints. And so instead of saying "no, because", I'll say, "Yes, Jen, you could do that, if we had access to these things.".
Jen: Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Pete: So, I don't know, an example could be The Long and The Short Of It are going to do a live tour around the world, to 100,000 people.
Jen: Oh my gosh, that's going to be so fun.
Pete: It's going to be great. And you say, "No, Pete. We can't do that, because we don't have the funds, the resources, the flights, the capability to draw in 100,000 people, blah, blah, blah.". That's a restriction you're placing on that idea. As opposed to, "Well, yeah, we could do that, Pete, if we had access to a few more funds, maybe we figure out a way that we can draw in people.". And like, all of a sudden, it's a proactive conversation as opposed to a restrictive conversation. Hmm.
Jen: Okay, I have one more thing to throw in here, which is when I was the parent of a very young person...my young person is now ten. But when she was much younger, I became aware that the social norm parenting style is negative.
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: Which is like, "Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't touch this. Don't cry. Don't talk.".
Pete: Mm-hmm.
Jen: You know, and so, I am in no way perfect about this. But when I would catch myself parenting that way, I would try to spin it. So instead of, "Don't cry,", it would be something like, "Tell me what's on your mind."
Pete: Hmm.
Jen: Which feels, again, it's a, it's a way to help things exist, instead of to prohibit things from existing.
Pete: Hmm. Yeah, you're seeking to understand. Hmm.
Jen: Okay, so let's circle back around here for a moment.
Pete: Yeah, yeah.
Jen: I think what we've landed on is: we like constraints.
Pete: Oh yeah, we love constraints. This whole podcast, like you said, is a constraint.
Jen: And that we will continue to assign ourselves constraints, and to assign each other constraints because we're in the arena together. I think you can accept constraints from arena people in order to move our projects forward.
Pete: Mm-hmm. Yes. And so the challenge out there, for our listeners, is to look at the constraints you're placing on yourself (both real and imagined), and ask yourself, "What if these were all assets?".
Jen: Constraints as assets. Now that is The Long and The Short Of It.