The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 89 - Decide

Episode 89 - Decide Box O’ Goodies

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. The episode you're about to hear was recorded in mid-May, and we all know that quite a lot has happened since then. But Pete and I have decided to go ahead and release this episode anyway, although it doesn't talk about what is currently happening in the world, because we think that the main idea of the episode is still quite relevant. And we hope that you will listen with that in mind. Also, on behalf of Pete and myself, we want to express our solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement, and we are continuing to educate ourselves about anti-racist practices so that we can become better allies. To that end, in this week's Box O' Goodies we have included a ton of resources for those of you who want to join us on our quest to become better anti-racist allies. You can go to thelongandtheshortpodcast.com and click on "Episodes", we will attach this week's Box O' Goodies to this week's episode. And if you already subscribe to our Box O' Goodies, you'll find those resources in your email inbox today. Thank you so much for listening...on with the episode.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Earlier this week, I had what could only be described as an intense conversation with a group of clients. And it all came down to one little word.

Pete: [whispering] What was it? What was the word? [laughter] I don't know why I'm whispering.

Jen: I don't know. But it's dramatic and I appreciate it. The word was, and is: decide.

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: We were talking about decisions that needed to be made. And I thought it might be useful to unpack said conversation.

Pete: Yes. I'm deciding to step into this with you. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, so you might have heard that we are in the midst of a global pandemic. Don't know if you heard about that.

Pete: I've heard about that.

Jen: Okay. You may also recall that I work predominantly in the theater industry, which shut down on March 13th, 2020.

Pete: Yes, I'm aware. I'm aware. Continue.

Jen: And so, my clients...for the first, let's say, two months of this shutdown, perhaps were still in a bit of a phase of denial, where there was some unfounded optimism about how long things were going to take. And now there's newly founded optimism that it's going to take a lot longer and changes need to happen. And so the conversation was about: "Now that I have a better sense that there is no timeline for how long this thing's going to take, I have decisions I have to make." So we started by simply saying out loud, "There is something I need to decide.". And then naming the thing.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So for some clients, this was like epic life decisions. Like, "Am I moving my family across the country? Are we relocating? Am I changing careers?". And for some people, it's smaller things. But in all cases, it starts with deciding to decide.

Pete: Mmm, I like that. So immediate thought is, it reminds me of one of my favorite questions that I was asked, and most people are asked in...I believe it's, I'm just trying remember the context. I'm pretty sure it's in the altMBA. The question is: "What's the looming change you're willfully ignoring?"

Jen: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Say it again.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I need it to sink in.

Pete: This haunts me, and, I know, others in a really, really great way. The question is: "What is the looming change that you are willfully ignoring?" And to me, that is sort of what you described. "What's the decision you need to decide on?" Or, "What's the thing you're not making a decision on that you should say out loud?". Is, "What is the thing in the back of your head that you know that it's there, that it's time to say out loud?". So that's the first thing that comes to my head. And I guess in piggybacking off of that, what I've often wondered about that question, and what I am wondering about what you just described, is whether it even matters that there's a pandemic. Or whether every one of us always has some sort of decision that we should say out loud that we're maybe hiding from, or we're maybe ignoring, or there's a looming change that we're willfully ignoring. Like, is there always, for everyone, a version of that? I don't know. I just wanted to ask that, and say that out loud.

Jen: I mean, we make decisions all the time. They might not feel so magnified and epic.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I mean, it's, it's not every day that...at least in the case of my clients, there's literally not a stage in our entire country (I don't know about the rest of the world), but in our entire country that is putting on a play tonight.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: That is unprecedented.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So the decision is, now it's looming because of these circumstances. For some people, these circumstances have helped them to see a decision they wanted to make a long time ago.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: But for some people, this is not a decision they really want to make, but they know they have to.

Pete: Yeah, okay. That's interesting.

Jen: I will tell you this though, Peter. That the idea of looming...like the, just the image that conjures up of something like so dark, and heavy, and...

Pete: Like a big cloud.

Jen: Yeah. And when you think about some of these epic decisions that some people have to make about how they are going to sustain the kind of life that they want for themselves, for their family, for their loved ones, it feels so heavy. But once they said it out loud and actually acknowledged that there was a decision that had to be made, many of them said that it felt like a huge weight had been lifted off their shoulders, just to be able to say it. That it was like a sigh of relief to say, "I need to make a decision.".

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. I so agree with that. I mean, it reminds me, in a way, of...it reminds me, in a way, of The Lamppost Effect-

Jen: Uh-huh.

Pete: -that you and I have spoken about, at some point in one of the eighty-odd episodes that we've recorded. And for those that are new, and haven't heard the reference, The Lamppost Effect is essentially this idea that it would be helpful and beneficial for humans to walk up to a lamppost and just talk to it about the decision that you need to make, or the change that's looming, or how you're feeling today, or what's on your mind. That there is underrated benefit in saying things out loud. And so like, hearing you just say that reminded me of like The Lamppost Effect. So the way that we, you and I, have talked about that before is sometimes as a human being, as a listener, you just need to be a lamppost (i.e. hold space, be quiet, and let someone speak). So it reminds me, it just reminded me of the power in saying things out loud. I totally agree with that. Yeah.

Jen: Yeah, there is. There is quite a lot of power, just getting it out. And then the other thing, I think, that trips people up, or holds them back from even saying, "I need to make a decision," is this idea that there's only one possible right decision to make.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: "And I'm so afraid that I won't say that, that I'll say nothing." So, one of the ways that we moved around that was to state multiple possible decisions that could be made about said thing. And similar to, like, the way you and I talk about brainstorming, decision-making can also take a similar form to brainstorming. So, if you know you need to make a decision...like, "What am I going to do with my New York apartment?". Give me ten possible decisions you could make. As opposed to, "Find the one right answer, and do it now.".

Pete: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I want to, like, say this again for my own benefit, but for everyone else's benefit. Because this, I find, such a...a default trap that I've caught myself go to is making things binary.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And so, when we are faced with emotionally charged decisions...and so, maybe to go back a step, I think one of the big things that gets in the way of good decision-making, of effective decision-making, is our emotions. We get emotionally attached to outcomes. We get emotionally attached to what might be sunk costs. We get emotionally attached to people, resources, situations, which impacts, impedes our decision-making ability. So, when that happens, what I recognize in myself is I make things really binary. And when I say binary, what I mean is I think, "Well, there's option A, or there's option B. That's it.".

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And I think a really useful prompt that I've certainly been asked before by other coaches and, and you is like, "Well, what are options C, D, E, F, and G?". And just, like, prompting yourself to think about that can be a really effective way to just get yourself out of the binary. So basically, just repeating what you said, but for my own benefit.

Jen: I told you, offline, that I was reading this book called Imagine It Forward, by Beth Comstock.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Where so many of the things she says, so many things are like riffs that resemble things you and I talk about but in different language.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And one of the things she talks about in terms of avoiding binary decision-making is taking what you thought was the binary and putting it on two ends of what you would call a spectrum. So instead of, "Something could be right or wrong," it's, "On the spectrum of right to wrong, where does this fall?".

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: Because there's a very wide range. Or on the spectrum of good to bad, or on the spectrum of expensive to cost-effective. Where does this fall?

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And that reminds me of something Seth Godin does, which is he takes basically two sets of ranges or spectrums, and he turns it into a four quadrant grid.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And you, you place things within the quadrants. So, you know, if the x-axis...thinking about like, "What do I do with my New York apartment?". So if the x-axis is high cost/low cost, and if the y-axis is high joy/low joy.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Like, where do the decisions fall?

Pete: Mmm. Ooh, I like that. I like that. What, I mean, what you're sort of articulating (which is something I've been thinking about a lot recently, actually), is having some sort of structured process for decision-making.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Which feels very obvious when I say it out loud. But I think very rarely do we have a repeatable, structured decision-making process that we can fall back on. Or, I guess the litmus test could be that you could teach someone else. Like, "This is the step-by-step process I make decisions through.". I don't think many people have that. I'm curious for your thoughts on if you have one, whether you think that's worthwhile. Like the grid, I think, is a really good example. The continuum of a spectrum, I think, is another good example. As well as, you know, coming up with fifteen options before you consider what the decision is that you might make. Have you thought about this? Like, in terms of a process for Jen Waldman?

Jen: Yes. I mean, maybe I'm repeating myself, but The Golden Circle. Simon Sinek's Golden Circle is always helpful to me to make decisions.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: It's like, "Does this allow me to act in accordance with my why? Yes? I can make that decision. No? Nope, that is a deciding factor.". So, I guess knowing what your deciding factors are...like what, what are your non-negotiables in terms of decision-making. And then (I know I've mentioned this on a previous episode), but one of the things that helps me to make decisions...and this might sound cold in these times, but I actually think being able to be a bit objective right now is really useful. So the impact/effort matrix.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: The high to low impact, and high to low effort. I don't want to do things that are low effort, low impact.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And I sure as hell am not doing things that are high effort, low impact. I'm looking for high impact decisions.

Pete: Mmm. I love this. So I'm reading, rereading a book at the moment called Principles.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Which is by Ray Dalio. And listeners can't see this, but when you were talking before, I sprinted off into the distance to grab it.

Jen: You did. I was like, "Is it something I said? Why has he left?".

Pete: No, because it's so wild that we're having this conversation. Because...so listeners may or may not know, you and I don't tell each other what we're going to talk about before we hit record. We just hit record, and this is an entirely impromptu, in the moment, conversation. No script. And about twenty, like about twenty minutes before this call, you'd said, "Could you give me twenty minutes?". And so, I was like, "Cool. Yeah. I'll just pick up my book, Principles, and just like read a few pages, while I wait for Jen.". And the, the part of the book that I'm reading...so the context of the book is Ray Dalio, one of the most successful investors of all time, has literally just created a book where he says, "This is how I think about decision-making. This is how I think about my life principles, and my work principles as it relates to being effective, and being a, you know, high performer, if you like.". So I was just reading this this morning, just before our call. And I'll just read it to you. He said that, "Recognize that, number one, the biggest threat to good decision-making is harmful emotions.".

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Which is literally what we just said. "And number two, decision-making is a two-step process. First, learning. And then, deciding.".

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And so, I think all of the things that we just talked about around like, "Can you come up with more than two options? Can you run it through your filter of The Golden Circle? Can you, I don't know, seek feedback from others, from trusted resources, from people on your Square Squad (for those that are familiar with the Square Squad that Brene Brown talks about)?". That's all part of the learning process. So it's almost like collating information in order to then move into the second stage, which is: make the decision. So I just wanted to share that and say that out loud.

Jen: Sometimes it's spooky. The synchronicity.

Pete: Yeah. I mean, the other thing I just think that we have to talk about (that we've talked about in many episodes, but we have never done an episode specifically on decision-making), is the distinction that I always come back to that a good decision does not necessarily guarantee a good outcome.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And a bad decision doesn't necessarily guarantee a bad outcome. That we must separate decisions from outcomes, because they're two separate things. And the example that I've mentioned a hundred times, I'm sure by now, is from Annie Duke's book, who is a famous poker player...her book is called Thinking in Bets. I cannot recommend it enough. She has so many great examples of this. And one of them goes like, something like this: where you're playing poker, you do the math, and you realize you have a 90% chance of winning a hand. So you make a decision based on that information, based on what you've learned that you have a 90% chance of winning. So you're like, "Well, I'm going to go all in. Because that's a pretty smart decision. The math tells me that's a smart decision.". And you lose the hand. So you get a bad outcome, because you had a 10% chance that would happen. What would be unfortunate is if you were to reflect on that process and say, "That was a terrible decision," and then beat up your decision-making process.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Because actually, your decision-making process was sound. It was really solid, based on math. Based on actual facts and figures, most people would make that decision. And yet, there's still a possibility that you're not going to get the outcome you desire. So I just, like, want to say that out loud again. Which is, can we, as much as possible, when thinking about looming change, when thinking about decisions, recognize that we don't have full control over what the outcome might be? We can have a preference, but we don't have control.

Jen: Yeah, that's a really good reminder. Because I think for a lot of people, the looming question mark of: "What are the possible outcomes of this decision that I must make...".

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: ...can cause some people to just sit back and not make a decision, which we both know is also a decision. Not deciding is also a decision?

Pete: Yeah. Can you say that again, just for everybody listening?

Jen: Yes. Not deciding is a decision.

Pete: Mmm. That's so rich.

Jen: And it's easy to get caught up in it. Because there's so many external forces at work that it feels like, "I can't make a decision.". Yes, you can. You can. It's hard. It requires significant emotional labor. But decisions really need to be made, for at least a lot of people in my life who I'm seeing on a daily basis these days.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And I think a lot of them are, indeed, plucking up the courage and doing something about it, which makes me very optimistic.

Pete: I love that. Because the, one of the final questions I would leave us with in considering decisions is a question I love to ask myself and others, which is: "What's the opportunity cost of you not deciding?"

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Like, to your point, if not making a decision is a decision, what is the cost of not deciding? What is the opportunity cost of not acting and making a decision? And often, it's a scenario that we'd much rather avoid.

Jen: Well, speaking of questions...I, I said to the other day, "Oh my gosh, I forgot to write my blog post this week. What's happening to me?". And I wrote a short piece about this, which is basically just a series of questions that...if you know you have to make a decision and you're feeling stuck, you're not sure how to take the first step, consider starting with questions instead of starting with answers. So, here are some questions for you. If you, listener, need to get started with making a decision, you can start with the seven standard questions. Who? What? Why? Where? When? How? And, how much? Or you could use two of our favorite fill-in-the-blank questions. How might I? And, what if. Or, you could answer what I think is the most important question a human being could ask: "What would Lin-Manuel Miranda do?"

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.