The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 92 - Principles

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: I've spent the last couple of weeks working away at a little project on principles. And I think I need you to help me unpack it even more.

Jen: Principles, okay. I'm going to definitely need more information. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So, I'm talking about principles (which is "les", not as in the headmaster of a school "principal").

Jen: Okay.

Pete: So, there is a book by Ray Dalio called Principles. Now Ray Dalio is a very successful investor, and has been for many, many years, many decades, I believe. Anyway, he put together this book a few years ago (which I've read before and I decided to reread), that is essentially like, "Here is my life's work as a series of principles.". And what he means by principles is almost like rules and reminders to himself, and to those that he gets to work with, that enable him to make decisions and remember mental models that he wants to live by. So a couple of weeks ago, what happened to spark my rereading of this book was I reached a stage of overwhelm.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And I would stop short of calling it burnout because it wasn't quite burnout, but I was in a state of like heightened anxiety and overwhelm, basically. And what I recognized is I'd said yes to too many things. I had too many things to do, too many projects to juggle, far too many Zoom calls to attend to, to facilitate, to try and keep track of, too many Slack groups, too much. And I feel like every single one of us can relate to that moment.

Jen: Mm-hmm. Been there.

Pete: Where you go, "Oh, I see what's happened here. I have said yes to far too many things.". And I was having a conversation with a friend. And in talking about this, what they helped me realize, or asked me, was some version of, "What are you doing because you feel obliged to? And what are you doing because you want to? And thinking about that, do you have a set of rules for what you say yes to and what you say no to? And what would it look like if you did?". And I was like, "Interesting. Interesting.". My short answer was, "No, I do not. I mean, I make decisions on the fly.". And...

Jen: I know. [laughter]

Pete: [laughter] I know, you know this. And I got curious as to what it would look like to create, essentially, Pete's Principles.

Jen: Ooh.

Pete: Pete's Rules of Engagement.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Pete's version of things to remember and keep in mind when making decisions. And so I want to just pause there for a second, because I recognize I've spoken a lot. Does Jen Waldman have a list of principles or rules of engagement that she uses to make decisions, or remember things through?

Jen: Yes, she does.

Pete: Really?

Jen: Yes, she has multiple sets.

Pete: I didn't know this. Here we go. Tell me more.

Jen: I mean, on the macro level, I have my "Hows", which are a set of principles.

Pete: Of course.

Jen: But I also have circumstance-specific principles like, I have what I literally call my Rules of Engagement for Effective Communication.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Which is a list of principles that I apply to anything I'm sending out into the world in written form. And I do my best to apply them in the moment.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: But I'm a little more lenient with myself when I'm speaking extemporaneously.

Pete: Hmm. I love this. I love this. I love this. So one of the many things it reminds me of is...[laughter] it can be a strength, it can be a weakness. We joked about my tendency to make decisions off-the-cuff. And I was talking to my girlfriend actually, a couple weeks ago about this, who is a very, very brilliant operational, detail-minded individual.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And I am not. [laughter] And she was sort of asking me about the business that I have, and the work that I do, and, you know, even the collaboration that you and I have. And she was kind of asking a version of like...the metaphor I had in my head was like she was trying to understand what's, like, what's underneath the hood.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And I was kind of like, "There's nothing under the hood.". [laughter] As in, I haven't documented anything. It's all in my head. I was like, "It's all, it's all in my head.". Which is so, I recognize, unhealthy. So that was the other catalyst for me being like, "I need to document some of these things.".

Jen: Can we do like a side note moment? I think the story you're telling yourself that you're not detail-minded is old news. And I think you are much more detail minded-now than you were at least when I met you. I've seen you change in that direction, and plot things out, and work with different systems of planning. So, I'm just saying that's old news, Shepherd. But, continue.

Pete: I appreciate that, Jen Waldman. Anyway, so I've spent hours and hours and hours rereading the book Principles. I created a spreadsheet called Pete's Principles. I listened to another podcast by Naval Ravikant, who is a really interesting thinker. He was from a very poor family in India, migrated to America, created a bunch of really interesting businesses, and is very successful. And he has documented in a podcast like, "These are my principles, how I think about business and life.". So I was like listening to that, reading Ray Dalio, thinking about Jen Waldman and her principles that I didn't even know existed (but like I sort of knew, because I've experienced you talking about them). And I'm like in the process of drafting Pete's Principles. And I have like so many thoughts to say about that whole process. I mean, it's quite long.

Jen: Here's what I've got to share with you. A principle about principles, Peter.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: One of my principles for creating principles is that they've got to be succinct enough that you can remember them.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So that's my pre-coaching moment, when you say, "These are really long.".

Pete: It's so funny, because the purpose of making them really long at the start...the next step, which I haven't got to, is distilling it down to as few as possible.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That's the bit I love. Like, I love taking things that are far too long, and simplifying them for my own brain, basically.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And so, I'm quite excited about that. But even in going through this process, there are so many themes that I can see. And so, maybe just like calling a few of them out. In fact, one of the last principles that I was thinking about and I had heard reemphasized in this podcast was...it almost summarized all of them. Like, I almost just tore up the rest of it. [laughter] And it was like, quite simple. It was, "If you have a healthy body, a clear mind, and a house full of love, nothing else matters.". And I was like...

Jen: Thanks for listening, bye.

Pete: [laughter] Yeah. It's like: healthy body, clear mind, house full of love. That's three pretty succinct principles that one could work towards.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So there are so many themes, as a relates to that. The other thing I get really curious about in looking at the themes of the principles that I have on paper right now, is that so many of them are just about...we've talked about this in some episodes recently, or recently-ish. So much of it is about acceptance of reality.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Like, in order to apply any principle, in order to make any form of smart decision, informed decision, intentional decision, we need to get clear on and accept what is in front of us. So you and I talked about this in the New Normal and Your Business episode, around accepting the fact that we find ourselves in a global pandemic. And so, what does it look like to move forward through that? And I think that accepting where we find ourselves as individuals, or where we find ourselves as a community, or as a group, is like the most fundamental principle to then figure out how you might move forward. It's like, understanding your reality. Now baked into that is: seek feedback from people who are really smart. And: ask questions of people who are in your life and that whose opinions you value. All in the interest of helping you paint the picture of what reality looks like. So, my very large theme that I'm recognizing is...it's almost like step one before anything is figure out (in whatever way possible): what is the situation that you find yourself in? What are the facts? What's the reality? The other principle that I've always thought about, but I've never written down, is, I always think I want to do meaningful work with interesting people. And so like, what does that actually look like?

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Because it's a nice statement, but what does it actually look like is the other part of this. So, I recognize I'm thrashing a lot in this episode. The interesting kind of noodle I've had in the last couple of days honestly (and I don't mean to debunk this entire episode), is...what I'm recognizing is the process of thinking about things as principles, and writing down as many as possible, has almost led me to a point where I'm like, "Whatever comes out the other side doesn't matter anymore.". Because it's the process and the practice of thinking about, how do you...it's a self-awareness exercise. How is it that you're making decisions, at the moment? How is it that you're figuring out what your given circumstances are, at the moment? And what would it look like to do that with more intention? That's really what I'm trying to do, is get clear on how to make better decisions with more intention. And creating words, and principles, and things around that is a really helpful process that enables you to do that. But I think it's going to get to a point where it's like...almost like your "Hows", for example. There's so ingrained in your head. You don't need to refer back to a document. They're just tattooed in your brain.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So what I'm actually doing, I think, is tattooing things on my brain, perhaps.

Jen: Well, the way they become tattooed on your brain is by practicing them.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: So, principles as practice.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: That's the next step after you identify them, is to actually practice them regularly. I want to also just say that I think what you just articulated is actually a principle. And that principle might be articulated as, "Process over product.". Or, "Value process over product.".

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Or, "Pursue process over product.".

Pete: Yeah. I love that. Now, I think I mentioned at the start of this that the purpose of the book that Ray Dalio wrote was really to help him make decisions. And one of the things I've been trying to wrap my brain around, as it relates to decision-making, is like he talks about decision-making being two steps. First is learning, and then deciding. So you spend a bunch of time learning about what the decisions are, what the inputs are, what the options are, what are the things, the stories, the feedback that you've got, and then you're able to make an informed decision. And building on that, one thing that has been really interesting (and I'm not even sure if this applies, which is what I want to get your thoughts on), is the way that his particular business runs is they want their decision-making to be basically replicable by an algorithm, almost.

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: So any individual, any individual, any employee can look at a series of inputs and make a consistent decision, regardless of who you are. And I hear your "hmm" as pushback, which I understand. And one of the things I think that is interesting about this is, what we know about decision-making is we're not always thinking rationally when we make decisions, as humans. And one of the reasons for doing that is because of the levels of emotion that get attached to decisions. So the question that back at the start of this episode, that I mentioned a friend asked me was, "What are you doing out of obligation versus because you actually want to?". And I think obligation comes with a bunch of interesting emotions, and stories that I tell myself. So the purpose of making it like an algorithm, I think, is to help you get almost division from stories that you're telling yourself that might influence your decision-making. Can it be a little less attached to those stories?

Jen: I think maybe the thing that I'm challenging is the word "algorithm".

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I wonder if we could replace it with "shared values". That we agree on what the principles mean, and why they're there. I mean...so when I hear algorithm, I get scared because to me that eliminates creativity and empathy.

Pete: Totally. Yeah, your version sounds a lot more human. [laughter]

Jen: But I do think it is...I think what you're saying is that when we understand the value of the principles, people feel they have the agency to make decisions, because everyone's on the same page about what informs the decisions that we make.

Pete: Hmm. Exactly. That's the criteria, almost, of what feeds your decision-making process. And so, if you think about what I shared before, that, "It's all in my head. It's not down on paper. Like, there's nothing under the hood.". That is so unhelpful if you're trying to bring someone else onto your team. Or, you know, as I've been thrashing with lately, is like: how do you teach versus coach? Well, in order to be able to teach, you kind of need to be able to document like, what is it that you're trying to teach? It can't just be in your head. So, you're right. "Algorithm" was the wrong word. But there's something in this teachable, replicable, agreed set of principles or values that is important, especially when it comes to collaboration.

Jen: So the timing of this is just really interesting, because my team has grown recently. And also the business has grown in a different direction. And we have sort of like infinite opportunities right now, which I said to my team, "Infinite opportunities...to make terrible decisions.". Because there's so much possibility that we really have to create principles or a criteria for decision-making. And so, what we've decided to do is we actually hired someone, who's coming in a week from Saturday, to run an organizational Why Discovery for us.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Because it feels important, as we're making very big decisions right now about the future, for everyone to be on the exact same page about: what is our "Why"? What are our "Hows"? And how is that going to shape our new "Whats"?. So, we're essentially doing a principles exercise. Different vocabulary, but same idea.

Pete: Yeah. Which is...I feel like this is either an aha moment or like, a slap in the face. [laughter] Maybe it's the same thing. (Not that you just slapped me in the face, but like I slap myself in the face.) Which is, it's almost like I forgot that a Why Statement and a series of "Hows" is a set of principles as well. So like, me kind of telling myself the story of, "I have no principles. And I'm making decisions off-the-cuff, or not documenting, or there's nothing under the hood," is not entirely true.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because I do make them through a lens that relates to my work, which is my Why Statement, and the "Hows" that I have. So, it's almost like twenty minutes of thrashing to realize that, "Maybe you just need to look at your Why Statement and your 'Hows', Pete.". [laughter]

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.