The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 94 - Learning Fatigue

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: So just before we clicked record (with a different topic in mind), you said something to me that completely changed the topic that I had in mind. And what you said was...do you want to, what did you say? Something about learning? Remind me, Jen. What was it you said?

Jen: I said, "I'm so exhausted from learning so much.". [laughter]

Pete: And I said, "I think that is our episode.".

Jen: Okay, let's do it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So, perhaps we'll title this episode "Learning Fatigue", or "The Fatigue of Learning", I'm not sure. But what's happening in your world that makes you feel like you're too fatigued from learning? Because I feel like we could probably all relate to this, but maybe let's just unpack it a little from your perspective.

Jen: Okay. There are two different categories of learning in my life, at this moment. One is the learning that I'm actively in pursuit of.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: And the other category is the learning that is being thrust upon me by the world. So really, what I mean is...for the people who are just tuning in now, back in mid-March, I made the decision to move my entire studio online. And today we started month number four of our online classes. And there's just been so much learning about what it means to be operating in this space, how to take care of our community during this time, what is and isn't useful, how to be efficient, how to not be efficient. I mean, it's like every day there's something new. The last time I was in a learning curve this steep was when my daughter was a newborn.

Pete: Ah, interesting.

Jen: And I was like, "Oh my god, what do I do with this creature?". [laughter] And every day was different. And that's what the last three plus months have really felt like. And I'm kind of at the point now, I was saying to some of my team members today, where going in to this new space, we had no real information and couldn't...we were just guessing. But now we have three months of information to work with. So we can't pretend like we're guessing anymore. Now we know things. So now we have to do something with what we know.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And it's just, it's...I feel grateful to be in this position, and also a bit exhausted.

Pete: Yeah, totally fair. Totally fair. I think we can all relate. So do you think there's something in what you just said, in the sense that, is it more effortful to have to learn based on having data? Or is it more effortful to make it up based on no data? Does that make sense?

Jen: I would say the former is harder.

Pete: Yeah, I think so too.

Jen: Having nothing to go on is like, it's a breeze. It's like, there's, there's no way I can fault myself for what I don't know. I am free to experiment. I'm free to take risks. I'm free to fail. Now I can't pretend to be an expert, but I at least have enough information to work with that I can calculate better decisions. I can anticipate pitfalls or challenges that I might encounter. Whereas a couple months ago, it was like, "Who knows? So let's just go.".

Pete: Yeah, I mean, in many ways you are a victim of your own success. And victim is, victim is the wrong word. But you're, you're running up against the tension of your own success. And I mean, I've heard this with plenty of friends working, you know, in corporate or startups, for example, where they, at a very young age, have a bunch of success. Get themselves into a position...I mean, I'm basically describing my own story. Through a series of fortunate events and some hard work, I got myself into a position that was a senior role at a very, very young age. And you get to the point where you feel like it's harder and more effortful to continue on that path, because of the history of what your path has been. So it's like, if you've grown exponentially, or if you've grown dramatically, then that gets harder and harder to maintain as you go. Because you have this, I guess, a weight of expectation...probably that we put on ourselves. Like, I don't think there's anyone else putting that expectation on you, Jen, and I don't think there was anyone else putting that expectation on me, in that example of growing in a startup. But it's just so interesting that we do that to ourselves. And so it's almost like it becomes heavier and heavier, or more tiring as we go, as we learn continuously. Hmm.

Jen: I think I just connected a big dot.

Pete: Go.

Jen: I think I'm having...I said to our mutual friend, Priya, who's on my team. I said to her today, I'm waiting for my aha moment. And I think I'm having it right now. Okay. So what I teach at the studio is explore all of the possibilities first.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Do too much, give yourself too many options, try everything. And then make an informed choice, after you've taken a look at what all of your options are. I mean, this is, this is how I direct. This is how I teach. I'm realizing that I wasn't taking my own advice. I wasn't actually following the process that I teach. [laughter] Oh my goodness. So if I were my student, and I was talking to myself...which apparently I'm doing right now.

Pete: Yes, let's do it.

Jen: I would ask, "What system do you have in place to review your work?". And then I would have the student enumerate the system (all of the things that they're looking for, all of the criteria that they're measuring), and then we would look for the gaps and get rid of anything that isn't actually useful, and then make decisions about what to cut and what to keep. I mean, this is how you craft a performance. You've got to try a lot of things, and you decide what to cut and what to keep. So sorry, I'm like ranting a bit right now, but like this is really important.

Pete: This is great. You're coaching yourself, and I'm loving it.

Jen: So I realize that what I need to do now with all this data that I have, with all these experiences and all the learning, is I need to actually set the criteria for what I'm looking for when I look back at the data. When I look back at the experiences, when I reflect, what am I actually looking for? So once I do that, which I have to do this week because I have decisions I have to make about how to create a more efficient operation, then I won't feel so...or I'm assuming, we'll find out, I'll report back. Then I won't feel so overwhelmed by all of the information, and I will have been able to get rid of information that's not in service of the choices I need to make right now. Boom.

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Wow, thanks. Cool, cool, cool, in the words of Peter Shepherd.

Pete: Cool, cool, cool.

Jen: Cool, cool, cool.

Pete: I think it's so useful and so interesting, though. For me, for you, for our listeners to hear that because the fatigue of learning, especially learning that is thrust upon us, is so real. Like the fatigue that everyone is experiencing at a different time, in one way or another, of learning to adapt to a global pandemic. Or the fatigue of having to learn a new job. Or the fatigue of having to learn how to adapt your life if your relationship breaks down, or whatever the example might be. We all have these examples of like, "I feel like I'm learning so much. And it is hard. And I have absolutely no idea what to do with any of this, other than I think I'm learning a lot.". So what you kind of did was gave a fairly practical way of like breaking that down, looking for the insight in pursuit of your vision, your Why, your goal, whatever, so that you can actually put it into action. That's what I heard, anyway.

Jen: Yes. And actually, I...I can't even express how the last (what we've been recording) ten minutes, have lifted a bit of a weight. Because I'm walking around with all of this information and like not really having anywhere to put it. Like, I know what I want to put it into. I want to put it back into my community, I want to strengthen what we're building. I want to create more change. But I don't really, I didn't really have the container. Like, I had the people. But what is the container? So I think just giving myself these like, separate buckets: "This information goes there, this information goes there. Which of these is the most useful bucket to dump out right now and sort through the contents? This one.". Just even saying those words out loud, and talking myself through having steps to take is like...ahh, so much lighter.

Pete: Excellent. Well, this episode feels like it's been a success already. So I feel like one of the big aha's that I hear in hearing you say all of these things, is knowing what stuff that you can ignore. Or what learnings you can let go of, in a way, or what's stories you can let go of in your head. Because I think this is equally as true if I'm to go back to the second fatigue of learning, or type of learning that we talked about (which we haven't gone into), which was like actively pursuing learning.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: So, to date, we've talked about the learning that is thrust upon us. But the learning that is actively pursued...you know, a really basic example for me is like reading a book. And sometimes when I'm reading a really good book, I, myself, get myself overwhelmed to the point of like, "I need to remember every single word in this book, because this book is brilliant.". And I can't remember what it was that set off this aha moment, but at some point, I kind of just realized that you can take one or two learnings from a book that might contain seven thousand learnings, or six hundred learnings, or forty-two learnings. And that's enough, that's okay. Like if you took one line from it, if you took one metaphor, if you took one story from a book, that's great. That's brilliant. And to let yourself off the hook, in a way...or give yourself permission (is a better way of framing it), to not have to remember every single minute detail in a book. And I, I experience this with you actually, quite a bit. When you're like, "Oh, do you remember that line from the book? That was this brilliant insight?". And I was like, "Nope, I do not remember that line at all, Jen. But I have read that book. So, thank you.". And then I'm like, telling myself a story that I didn't read the book properly, and I'm too fatigued from learning, and I'm not bringing it all into action. And so I think this aha moment that you're having in terms of what to do with the learnings, which containers to put them in, which ones to ignore, I think is just as applicable when we read a book, or listen to a podcast, or take an online workshop or a course, or go back to school. Whatever it is, is, it's almost like as long as you move something forward, as long as you get one little aha moment, that's enough.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Does that make sense?

Jen: Oh, yes. Something that you said really struck me which is this pressure that we put on ourselves, when it comes to learning.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And I don't necessarily feel that pressure when I'm reading the way you do, but I feel it on this other side. Like, I'm reading a book right now, it's so good. It's called New Power. And I don't think anyone expects me to know anything about it. Because I didn't write it. I didn't experience it. I'm reading it. And I'm learning from it. And it's a choice. I'm going into this saying, "I don't know anything about what this book is about. So there's no way I'm coming out on the other side as an expert, but I'll take the pieces that are useful and inspiring, and figure out how to apply them.". Whereas if someone were to come right now and ask me about my business, I feel...this is probably a story I'm telling myself. I feel that their expectation is that I am an expert. And so I better figure out what I'm going to do with all this information, because there is an external expectation that I know what to do with it. So that's, that's like an interesting thing that just came up for me when I heard you talking about that. That I don't think...now that I'm hearing myself say it...I don't think anybody has fooled themselves into thinking I've been doing this online thing for anything longer than the quarter of a year I've been doing it. So, give yourself a break, Jennifer.

Pete: Yes. Yes, Jennifer. Give yourself a break. Also, I feel like you've never identified, really, as an expert in anything. That's kind of, part of, part of your charm. Is like being committed to such a growth mindset, to the point of, "I'm never an expert, there's always something to learn. Like, I'm pursuing mastery. But I'm not necessarily like a defined expert in this thing.". You've said that to me multiple times.

Jen: Thanks for the reminder. I think I needed someone to reflect that back to me.

Pete: Yeah, I think it's...I mean, it ties into a lot of the things we've talked about in many episodes. In terms of, I guess it's not quite Imposter Syndrome, but there's this...you know, it's probably more what Brene talks about, which is to stay awkward. And when she talks about staying awkward, I just love it. Because to me, it's like give yourself permission to fumble, to make mistakes, to get overwhelmed and get fatigued because of what you're learning. But then like, call yourself out for that. (Like you're doing, in this episode.) And like, all of that is okay. You don't have to wear the mask of, "I'm perfect. I'm an expert. I know exactly what I'm doing in every given situation.". And I think that's why people love someone like Brene. Because she's like, "This is what the research tells us. I know we need to be vulnerable. I know we need to talk about our shame. I don't want to do it. Like, I hate it just as much as you. I just know that this is what the research says.". And so she's like, perfectly calling out the fact that she's imperfect, as well. And I just wonder if there's something in that, in terms of the learning that's thrust upon us. We put expectation on ourself that, we almost can't let anyone else see the we're trying to figure this out. And so we put on a front...not to say this is what you're doing, but I think it's true of some people. Is, we put on a front that we're not even having aha moments, because we knew that all along.

Jen: Oh, that's so juicy. So when you said, "Putting up a front, but that's, not that that's what you're doing," I was like, "I wonder if that is what I'm doing?". So, I just had like a little Jekyll and Hyde moment with myself. Where, I think that when I am speaking with my artist community, like the actual artists I'm in service of...no, there's not a front. It feels very vulnerable and transparent. I think when I'm alone with myself, is when I'm putting up the front.

Pete: Wow. Wow.

Jen: I think I sit down at the computer and I'm like, "You're an expert at this. Figure it out.".

Pete: "Figure it out." In that voice, too? "Figure it out."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Well, one of the best books that I've read in the last year, for sure (maybe even longer, maybe five years), is a book called Stillness Is the Key by Ryan Holiday, which is... So Ryan Holiday has taken a bunch of stoic philosophy back from hundreds and hundreds of years ago, with Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius and these kinds of old stoic thinkers, and he's translated it in a way that's applicable to modern society, essentially. And he's done this with multiple, multiple books. Anyways, Stillness Is the Key is a brilliant book. And I mean, what I love about it is it's rooted in history that...so it's not like, "Here's a new idea that I just thought about.". It's like, "Here, let me translate what has been happening for hundreds and hundreds of years, and how it still applies.". And he has countless examples of brilliant thinkers, leaders, changemakers from around the world throughout history, that create space, that create stillness to think and take a breath. And I will never do this book justice in this podcast, I would recommend everybody read it. But it dawns on me that what you've done in the last nineteen-twenty minutes is kind of a version of that, right? Like you've said to me multiple times off-air in the last few weeks, "I have not taken a breath. I have not stopped." And while this has been you and I having a conversation, not necessarily you talking to yourself...in a way, it kind of has been you taking a deep breath and talking to yourself, and giving yourself permission to figure out what you've learned, or process your learning. As opposed to what so many of us do, which is constantly run on the hamster wheel, and try and figure out the learning while we're still running on the hamster wheel. And so it's just like, what does it look like to create space, to create stillness, to catch your breath, and give yourself permission to like, close the loop on what you're learning?

Jen: Wow, Pete. If you don't mind, I'm going to get off this call now, and go sit in stillness and take a breath. That is The Long and The Short Of It.