The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 107 - Cross the Bridge

Transcript:

Jen: Hello there, Peter.

Pete: Hello there, Jennifer.

Jen: Do people in Australia give advice using the following phrase: "Cross that bridge when you come to it"?

Pete: Yes, most definitely. Most definitely, they do.

Jen: Okay. I wasn't sure if that was an American thing. I find that to be truly terrible advice.

Pete: I got a feeling. I had a feeling you would say that. And it's funny because I'm kind of like, "Ah, is it?" So, we should definitely talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Is this an episode of the things that drive Jen crazy, again? Is that where this is going? "You know what drives me crazy..."?

Jen: You know what drives me crazy? Yes, it is. It is. And I'd like to open this episode with story time.

Pete: Please.

Jen: Once upon a time, in the early years of the 21st century, I was doing a Broadway show that some people might have heard of. It's called Wicked. And at the end of the first act, the wicked witch casts a spell, and flies. Like, literally flies onstage. And we had (we, meaning the cast), had asked, "What do we do if she doesn't fly?" So we had no plan B. Now, I think you've probably gotten ahead of where this story is going. And, you're right.

Pete: Let me guess.

Jen: So one night, she goes to sing her big number. And she's grounded. She's not flying. Now at this point, the stage is divided into two halves. Half of us are on stage left, that's my side. The other half is on stage right. And there's no way for us to communicate with each other. We start a huddle stage left, so that we decide what to do for our entrance which is coming up imminently. Unfortunately, telepathy was not our thing and we came up with two different solutions to this problem. My side ran onto the stage (and I'm not proud to say this) but we all laid down on the floor and pointed as if she was above us. Stage right, I'm not sure they did any better. They came out onto the stage and did their original blocking, completely ignoring the fact that the witch was not where they were pointing to. Of course, after that we came up with a plan B. But if we had crossed that bridge before we had come to it, we could have actually given the audience a performance that we were proud of.

Pete: You make a strong case. You make a strong case for crossing said bridge before you come to it.

Jen: Yes. And I can relate this now back to the present moment, where I've been having conversations in recent weeks with clients who are starting to get some requests for auditions, some job opportunities. And when we start talking about their discomfort with not knowing fully what that employer's safety protocols are going to be or like what the cleaning regimen is...or, will audiences be required to wear masks? Will they have their temperatures taken, and all this kind of stuff? Sometimes the response is, "Oh well, I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it." And I'm like, "No, we must cross the bridge now." We must see the looming bridge approaching, and in a moment where there's not an urgency ask, "What do I care about? What's important to me? Where is my comfort level?" So that when the bridge eventually comes, you don't have to scramble to come up with the answer.

Pete: Hmm. Do you think there's a parallel here between crossing a bridge before we've come to it (i.e. having a plan B) and a pre-mortem?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: That was the first thing, that's the first thing that came into my head. Is like, "Oh, it kind of sounds like Episode One where we talked about pre-mortems."

Jen: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, there's so many directions we could take this. But one thing that we spoke about in Episode One a long time ago, is that in a pre-mortem process, you actually name all the things that could go wrong, so that you come up with what you're going to do to prevent those things from going wrong. And there's also another way of looking at this, which I'm sure I've spoken about WOOP at some point during this podcast journey. Wish, Outcome, Obstacle, Plan: Gabriele Oettingen's framework. And the idea is that you are more likely to arrive at your intended goal if you give yourself permission to see all the possible obstacles and then create a plan for when those obstacles arise. So in both cases, whether it's with the pre-mortem or a WOOP plan, you are setting yourself up to make better decisions as you become aware of what's actually happening in the process.

Pete: Yeah. I feel like I want to say there's both. Both have value. Because the thing that is so top of mind is the pandemic, for example, that has taken 2020 by storm, flipped it on its head, and is not necessarily a bridge that I feel like anyone really could have seen coming except for maybe some really smart people who've talked about these kinds of things. Bill Gates comes to mind, he did a TED talk about four or five years ago that kind of predicted that this was going to happen. (I'll link to it in the Box O' Goodies, side bar.) But the point of that is I feel like I'm trying to work out in my head, how do we get clear in what the bridges are, so that we can prepare for them and come up with a plan B, and not hide in trying to identify all the bridges and then never do anything? And acknowledge that there are probably going to be things that we can't foresee, that we have to be able to adapt on the fly for, like a pandemic. So I'm curious about that tension of like, at what point do you know you've prepared for enough bridges? Is it like you need to have Plan A, B, and C? You need to have seen three bridges, and then you're okay to go? Because in my head, I'm thinking about the person who is never prepared to take action because they're always thinking about how many different bridges there are that they need to prepare for. And then you never do anything. And I think, as we've kind of addressed in a number of these episodes, I think I'm probably sometimes too far the opposite. Which is I can tend to be the guy that's like, "Oh, I'll figure it out when I get there. I'll cross the bridge when I come to it." And I totally have recognized in working with you, especially, how many like pitfalls that has. And so I'm just like trying to find the middle ground here. The tension point of, or the tipping point, if you like. Do you have any thoughts?

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. I do. I do. Okay. You can only cross a bridge that's in a path that you know you're walking down, or that you're driving down. So if you hear yourself say, "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it," that's a good moment to stop and think about what the bridge might look like. Of course, life is going to throw all sorts of curveballs in our direction. And we can't know what we don't know. But when we do know, when we are able to name that there is a bridge that will ultimately be crossed, "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it..." Not, "If I come to it," but "When I come to it," that's a great cue to ourselves to take stock. Like, here's another example. I have a lot of clients who right now are pursuing employment in new industries. And they want to talk to me about it, which I think is great. So I'll ask, "If you are offered a position, what's your salary requirement?" "Hmm, I don't know. I haven't thought that far ahead. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Like, so you know that should a job opportunity be presented, you will have to have a salary conversation. Let's have it now without the job on the table, without all that urgency around it.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. Great point. Great point. I feel called out. I feel very called out.

Jen: I didn't mean to call you out.

Pete: No, I know, but it's me. That's how I've previously approached things. "I'll figure it out when I get there, Jen. That's my superpower." No, not cool. Not cool. So the thing is that...I mean, I'm speaking to myself here, and it may apply to others. The thing I think you just unlocked for me is, honestly, an avoidance of emotional labor.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Of like, "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it." When I say that (and I have said that in the past, for sure), it's me reacting to like, "Jen's just pointed out a blind spot, basically." And I'm like, "I don't have time for that emotional labor. I'll just figure that out when I get there, Jen." I think that's, that's actually what I'm saying. When I say, "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it," I'm saying, "I can't be bothered dealing with that emotional labor right now."

Jen: I think what you just mentioned about the avoidance of emotional labor is really important. So I mean, just going back to the Wicked story, like what was that about? Like, okay, so if I'm thinking about it from the emotional labor perspective, it's that we have to admit that we might have made something that isn't perfect.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And when I think about it from the job seeker perspective, it's, "I have a dysfunctional relationship with my value, with my worth, and with money. So I'd rather someone else make those decisions for me, and then I can have an emotional reaction to the number that's put in front of me."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Or when it comes to safety, "I don't want to appear difficult to work with. I don't want to seem pushy, or overstepping my bounds (FOPO), so I'll just stay where I am and I'll react later when I'm dissatisfied with what the protocol is."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it feels like everything you just touched on is so important to think about. In the sense that it feels like in a way in your Wicked story, was maybe an unwillingness to accept that they had a blind spot pointed out to them. Or, I think about this a lot in the corporate world that I've been previously involved in and still do some work in, where because of the way that cultures are often structured and a lack of trust exists, people don't want to admit when they've made a mistake, or they don't want to admit that they haven't thought about something. They want to be seen and perceived as someone who's thought through all of the options. And so rather than saying, "Wow, great point, Jen. That's a huge blind spot. Let's talk about it." It's like it's easier to just say, to dismiss your idea by saying, "Oh, no, no, no, no. That's fine. We'll just cross that when we come to it." Like it feels kind of dismissive, in a way. Of like, you've given me some generous feedback. And I'm just like dismissing it as almost in a way of...I'm dismissing it in order to protect my ego.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Or something. Like, it feels like there's something there.

Jen: Okay, so what I'm hearing, based on what you just shared, is that they are really two directions that this advice takes. One is telling someone else, "Don't worry about it. Cross that bridge when you come to it." Which is essentially dismissing someone else's concern. And when it's an internal conversation with yourself, "I will cross that bridge when I come to it," that is a cue that there is hiding going on. That there's some emotional labor that needs to happen.

Pete: Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I'm obsessed with hiding spots. I think we all have infinite numbers of hiding spots. I think we can never not have a hiding spot. I think we're always seeking comfort, essentially, and in ways trying to avoid certain labor, emotional labor, physical labor, whatever. There are always moments where we're trying to avoid that. And so the practice of coaching, the practice of asking questions, the practice of getting feedback is to me, it's really about illuminating some of those blind spots so that you can decide what to do with them.

Jen: So I wonder if we have any tools, or frameworks, or ideas we can share to help nudge people in the, "Please cross the bridge before you come to it," direction. So one of the things that's been really helpful for me and for my clients is to identify the bottom line ahead of time. So, you know, people have all different ways of doing this. I like to think of having different scales, that I have to know where I stand with each of these scales on any given day. Where...I actually wrote a blog post about this a couple years ago called, "Should I take this job?" And so those four scales were real life financial concerns like, "Will this allow me to pay my mortgage and my health insurance? And can I invest in my retirement?" You know, all the financial concerns. Then there are the artistic and creative concerns. "Is this artistically fulfilling? Is this something that allows me to feel like the best of my work can shine through?" Another scale is personal development. "Is this going to allow me to grow? Am I going to be expanding the circle of people that I know? Am I going to feel elevated by this experience and further develop myself?" And then number four is social responsibility. "Can I put my head on the pillow at night and say, 'I've contributed something to the world.'" So, those are my four scales. And other people have different ones. But the idea is that you know ahead of time the kinds of questions you're going to ask yourself about the kinds of things that are important to you. So, that's the bottom line exercise. And then the other one, referencing back to the WOOP framework, is the "if, then".

Pete: Yes.

Jen: If obstacle, then plan.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: And talking yourself through what the obstacles are ahead of time, so that you already know what you're going to do if you encounter them.

Pete: And I think I'm just like noodling on, again, being called out about myself. And using this crutch of like, "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it." I think there's a direct tie to this idea of decision making. And the thing that we often...well, we, I'll just use myself as an example. The thing that I often forget and hide in, again, is that not making a decision is still a decision. And sometimes I forget that. And sometimes I think, "Well, if I don't necessarily decide to map out that bridge, if I don't necessarily decide what the plan is, then that's better. Because I'm not thinking about it. I'm not making a decision." I realize how irrational that sounds now that I'm saying it out loud. But for some weird reason (I guess it's, again, the avoidance of emotional labor), it feels so much easier to just avoid that decision. But what I'm forgetting is, that's a decision on its own. So by choosing to use the crutch of "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it," I'm ultimately deciding to potentially make my life a lot more difficult if and when a certain situation arrives that I probably could have seen coming, or had someone else help me see coming. And so with that, I guess the practical takeaway, the idea that a listener could use (Pete, I'm talking to you), is like, "What am I hiding from?" Or, "Am I hiding," as a question to ask yourself. Or, "Is this an avoidance of emotional labor?" I think that's a juicy question that would be...that if I asked myself, I would know the answer deep down. And I probably wouldn't like the answer. But I think it's a question worth asking. "Are you avoiding emotional labor?"

Jen: So I think, to bring it back around, there are certain things in this world that we can't know that we don't know. But when there are things that we can know that we do know, we've got to cross the bridge before we come to it.

Pete: Alright, alright, alright. That is The Long and The Short Of It.