The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 122 - Who You Know

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: So I've just finished reading this brilliant, brilliant book by Derek Sivers called Your Music and People. And I have like fifteen thousand notes. I was trying to think of which one of the fifteen thousand to pull on for an episode and I think I might have found the one, because I feel like you'll have a lot of thoughts and ideas about this one sentence. And the sentence is: "The number of people you meet will determine your success."

Jen: Ooh. Alright, let's go. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So, I should set a little context first. This book is very (I think, deliberately) contrarian. And Derek Sivers has a knack for sort of provoking really interesting thought, I find. And he is a musician, and formerly ran a company called CD Baby which was very, very successful in the music business, and understands a lot about the music industry. And so he wrote this book, basically intended for artists (as in musician artists), and how to go about their craft. And yet, reading this book, all of it applies to all the things that we've talked about around freelancing, around even entrepreneurship. It's just...it's so much more than just being about an artist. Which is interesting, because it's just really...he's focusing on one specific "who's it for", but the lessons are applicable everywhere. Anyway, the precursor to that sentence (that I should say, as well, before we unpack it) is, he sort of makes this statement or the assumption that, "I'm assuming you're a good person, you're a nice person, and your music is good. With that caveat, your success will be determined by the number of people that you meet." So his nudge, his action is, you know, try and meet three people a week or four people a week, or whatever, and talk about your art. And I just feel like there's so much wisdom there. So, I'm going to stop talking and get your reaction.

Jen: I mean, in so many ways, I agree with this sentiment. It's not necessarily that you have to meet as many random people as possible, but more that you practice speaking up about the kind of work you're making to the kind of people who you want to know that you're making it. And perhaps you even end up making it for them, or with them, or because of them. But I agree that it's very important for artists to talk about their work to other people...and freelancers and entrepreneurs, anyone who's making things has got to get more comfortable talking about the work that they do.

Pete: Yeah. Which reminds me of the Spruik episode, I think we did...a long time ago now. I couldn't even remember the number. And how, I mean, in this moment, I just realized that for so many freelancers, creatives, artists, and even entrepreneurs that I know (and I include myself in that), the work, the art is the fun part, is the enjoyable part. The creative part is...that's the bit we love. And being a nice person is also something that most of us like to do. I've not met many non-nice people. So, like those caveats I don't feel are that restrictive. And the tension really, for me, becomes, you've got to talk about your work. Not just to the people that you already know. Like, Pete, it's not much help me continuing to talk to you about the new thing that I built, or the new workshop that I'm running, or the new keynote that I'm delivering. It's, "Who are the new people you're talking to?" Hmm.

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, this also reminds me of an episode we did about Community vs. Network. And you could reach into your communities that you're a part of and share the work you're doing. And you could also reach into your networks and share what you're doing in an effort to bring people into your artistic community. So yes, all of...there are so many episodes that we have recorded which point back to this. But the thing that immediately comes to mind...and pardon me for a moment as I go down a bit of a rant rabbit hole.

Pete: Please.

Jen: And I'm about to share something that is specific to the theatre industry in content, but broad enough to apply to every single one of our listeners in context. So at the beginning of the Broadway/theatrical industry shutdown (which was the beginning of shutting down many other industries as well), some of the "gatekeepers" were very vocal about what they thought actors should be doing during this time. And the advice they were giving was like very unhelpful, and not relevant to the current moment. Things like, "You know, you really better be perfecting that audition material right now." Or like, "This is the time to, like, get to know your ring light." And things like that. And I was getting so annoyed, because the best advice to give to someone is, "Use this time to focus on building your community." Because on the other side of this pandemic when things start to move again, people will remember who they went through this with. People will remember the friends they made, the connections they made, the new collaborators they discovered during such an extraordinary time. I don't think anyone is going to come out on the other side of this pandemic and as the theatre industry is opening up, go, "Wow, look at how that person adjusts their ring light." I mean, community is really where it's at.

Pete: Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. And so, the thing I also...I know I said this, but I'm just re-emphasizing it for myself out loud, and maybe you have some additional thoughts. That it's the expansion of the community that's so important. It's not, "I have my three best friends or my three collaborators, and I only talk to them about my work. So, why isn't my community spreading?" It's the, I think, the emotional labor or the tension of (again, you mentioned this in the networking and community episode), of reaching into your network to bring people into your community. I just feel like that's worth re-emphasizing. It's not talking to the people that you're already comfortable talking to.

Jen: No, however...or no/and, or yes/and, whichever way you want to spin that. Sometimes the people who are in your inner circle or members of your close community don't know the ways in which your work has shifted, and grown, and adapted. So, it is important to keep people in the loop about that. But to your point, there's a book that I've mentioned a couple times on this podcast called Reach Out by Molly Beck. And in that book, she talks about creating a reach out practice where every single business day (Monday through Friday), you reach out to someone who is either in your existing network, or you're seeking a connection with outside of your existing network, maybe borrowing a connection from someone else. But the thing that really hit me in the gut when I read that book for the first time was this concept that if the people in the center of your network could have helped you, they would have helped you already.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Like if they really are people who believe in what you're doing, they will help you. So the fact that you are where you are right now with your existing community, whether it is very far along in your career or very early in your career, that community is only able to contribute what they are able to contribute. So reaching outside that network and looking for ways for you to contribute your art, your work, your ideas, etc., to people you don't know...first of all, it's generous. And second of all, it helps you to make progress.

Pete: Yeah. I take your point, for sure. Because I'm thinking, and I'm calling myself out for not always having my...say Square Squad, to use a Brene Brownism. Those that are really close to me in my trusted network or community, like yourself, not always having you across the latest idea, or workshop, or keynote, or book, or podcast, or whatever. So that is such a good call in/call out, that it's about updating the people in your close network, for sure. And that allows them to help you, and help yourself, grow that community, that network, and meet the new people.

Jen: Okay. I feel like there's also another angle to this that we have to look at, which is: why is it so hard for people who make things to share what they make? I mean, the emotional labor required is so heavy. It's such a heavy lift to bring work into the world and actually share it with people who might care. It's a lot easier to share it with people who you know won't care. Because, you know, that's already pre-determined. But when it's someone who might care, who might like it, who might resonate with it, on the flip-side of that is they might not like it, they might not care, and they might not resonate with it. And there's so much personal investment in the things artists make, it is really hard to hear someone say, "I don't like what you made." And so, the safer choice is to simply keep it to yourself, and then blame the world for not knowing you exist.

Pete: Which, I wonder if...it must surely go back to the fact that we're hardwired to want to belong, and feel safe and trusted in a community (or a tribe, back in the day). And that sticking your neck out or doing something that might be outside of the norm in that community, in that tribe, risks you being outcast, or risks you being shunned, or risks you being condemned for daring to stick your neck out. Like I just feel like, I don't know the answer to why it's so hard. Because I find it so hard, too. And I wonder if the reason we don't know the answer is because it's like, it's literally hardwired into us.

Jen: Yes. I mean, it taps into our deepest fear, which is the fear of other people's opinions. And especially the opinions of people who are in the know, people who have the kind of taste we are hoping for them to have.

Pete: Yeah. I'm going to also call...I don't know if this is calling myself out again. But I just... picking up on something you said, is so interesting, which was: sharing something with people who you know it's not for, or you know will not like perhaps the thing that you're sharing, is easier than sharing it with people who might actually get value out of it.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: So the other line I've written down in front of me from this book (which relates to what we're talking about, I think) is that, "Pedestals prevent friendships."

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And in the book, Derek tells this beautiful story...and I'll butcher it, but I'll do my best to summarize. But basically, he was at this music conference and he had these people that he was there to see speak. And he admired them. And he researched them. And he wanted to have a conversation with them. And now...you know, the top, top music producers in the business. And he sort of says, after one of their speeches, he went to talk to them and was a bit nervous and put them on a pedestal, and it didn't go that well. And so, he went outside to get some fresh air and just sort of like catch his breath. And in doing so, he met this person and they just got chatting, and he was just kind of like having a normal conversation. And it turns out that this person was like a very, very senior executive at one of the record companies, gave him his card. And, you know, the rest is history. Gave him a job and blah, blah, blah. And he had this aha moment that, "If I had have known who that was, I would never have created this friendship." And I just see so many examples of this, because I do it myself. When I put people on a pedestal, it's harder to connect. So, just keen for your thoughts.

Jen: Okay. Well, I have to deal with this all the time with people who are in the auditioning world. Because actors go in for famous directors, and they have a choice to make. They can either put them up on the pedestal, and that will absolutely inform and affect their work and affect the outcome. And frankly, there are some directors who like to be in that position. Where they are, you know, adored and worshipped. And they could also make the choice to view the director as a colleague or collaborator, and then approach the work in that way. And I find that approaching the work as a collaborator or colleague tends to lead to better outcomes. Because people who are in collaborative art forms don't want to be on a pedestal, because then they can't collaborate. Then no one challenges their authority. No one challenges their ideas, especially the bad ones. People talk about it behind the director's back, saying like, "I can't believe we're doing "x"." But when you are able to take someone off the pedestal, look at them as human, then you're able to really seek a relationship, a collaboration. And you can just imagine...you know, trying to build the empathy bridge here. How would you feel if a very talented and emerging artist, or creative, or entrepreneur in your field interacted with you and didn't allow you to be human? Forced you into this God or deity role? It's not a fun position to be in.

Pete: Yeah. And I think there's definitely parallels into corporate world, and even startup world as well. Like I've, you know, seen thousands, at this point, of people go through Seth Godin's altMBA. Of which, you know, I'm one of the head coaches. And the amount of times that you see an executive from a big company or a tech startup that's, you know, a big deal, a big founder...you know, they've got sort of a name for themselves. And in something like the altMBA, like, no one cares. It doesn't matter. Everyone's there to connect, and gather, and collaborate with one another. So, you might get a freelancer from Sweden collaborating with this high flying executive from New York. And time and time again, the amount of times that I've heard those executives say how helpful it was, how beneficial it was, how enjoyable it was to just have conversations like humans and collaborators. It's just, yeah, it's like every single session, it happens multiple times.

Jen: Yes. I love that so much. It just makes me think that, like, there are certainly going to be places where status and pedestal are valued. And I guess the question is, is that the environment that will ultimately allow you to create the change you seek to make in the world?

Pete: I like that. I like that, I like that. Okay, so what do we make of this Derek Siver's mic drop that rattled my brain and we've unpacked a little? That your success may be determined, or will be determined by the amount of people you speak to, or introduce yourself to, or know.

Jen: Well, first thing I make of it is, I better buy that book.

Pete: It's so good. It's so good.

Jen: And the second thing I make of it is, it takes a lot of emotional labor to do the work, to find your confidence, and share the work that you're doing. And it is vital that you do it anyway. Because the only way for change to happen, for important ideas to spread, for important art to be consumed, is for people to know that it actually exists.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.