The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 126 - Pricing

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. Before we get to this week's episode, we have some pretty exciting news to share. The Big Ideas Lab is back. Yay! We are so excited about this. If you are someone who has really good ideas, but you don't know exactly how to share them in a meaningful and impactful way, this is for you. You've probably heard Pete and me talking about how we take our ideas and turn them into keynotes and workshops that we deliver all over the globe. That does not happen by luck or by magic, that happens by design. And we'd love to teach you the tools, the techniques, and the skills to turn your own ideas into high impact content that you can share. You can find out all the information at thelongandtheshortpodcast.com/bigideaslab. The next session runs March 22nd to April 30th. This is a very intense six weeks. The applications are closing on March 15th, or whenever the session is full, whichever comes sooner. And last time, friends, it filled up before the deadline, so I encourage you to get over to the website and get your application in if you're interested in joining us. And now on to this week's episode.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So in a recent episode where we were talking about our books, we did that thing that we sometimes do, which is we went, "And that's probably a whole separate episode."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And if I recall correctly, it was to do with pricing, and the realization that we were having of what happens when...you, in the example, were paying for an editor.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I feel like there's so much to unpack there from the perspective of someone, like us, paying for something. But also (to tie it back to the freelancer episode, knowing a lot of our listeners are freelancers), how we can think about charging for our services.

Jen: Ooh, yeah. This is a juicy topic. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So maybe we start with the example you were sharing, which was...

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: ...the realization you were having around why you are finding it so beneficial to have paid and be paying an editor for the book that you're writing.

Jen: Yeah. So, my book writing process...

Pete: Why are you cringing?

Jen: ...has been a long, long, long slog. And finally, I was like, "I need accountability. But I don't need a friend. Like, I need accountability that I am paying for because then I will actually get it done. And I don't want to just pay anyone, I want to pay someone who can help me really get better at writing." So I went on this quest to find someone. And I found someone, a developmental editor. And already just the act of having gone through sending payment number one...today, I wrote two thousand words.

Pete: Wow. Wow.

Jen: I woke up early. I was like, "I'm just going to brain dump everything. It doesn't matter if it's any good." I'll probably throw out fifteen thousand of those two thousand, but that's fine. Knowing that I have paid someone who is expecting me to deliver something, and that she cannot do her job unless I deliver, has created a beautiful tension for me, and has helped kick the project into high gear. So, me paying her was actually a gift to me.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes. Okay, maybe I'll pile on one of my own examples of this. Because being six foot seven, I have had (and continue to have) a few injuries, particularly in like the shoulder, in the back, and the hips. And-

Jen: So, like, your whole body.

Pete: My entire body is injured is what I'm saying, yes. And there have been like chronic injuries. I've been to plenty of physios. I know enough about strength programs to sort of know what my deficiencies are, but I don't really. And so, I made the decision about twelve months ago to hire a strength-based coach to basically create a tailored program for me, based on my injuries, to help me work on my deficiencies. And like you could Google it, and get a video, and do the glute bridge raise yourself. Like, that's not that difficult. But I wouldn't have done it. And so the act of paying this person, immediately the same thing happened. I was like, "I'm getting up early. I'm doing my rehab." Like, I put it on my to-do list. "I have to do my rehab, it's now on my to-do list because I'm paying for it." And like, so I recognize that the same rule, that tension of me paying for a service...and I should say, it's more than just YouTube videos. Like she's a brilliant, brilliant coach, strength coach. And yeah, but the tension of that has pushed me (in a generous way) to actually get on top of a bunch of my injuries, and my body feels far better as a result. So, it's like: surprise, pricing is generous.

Jen: Yeah. So, there's...you always talk about this, Pete. That money is a story. Pricing is a story. Paying for something is a story. So I wonder if it might be helpful for us to unpack the story we are telling ourselves by making these payments, and then see if we can like flip the script a bit. I think the thing I am telling myself by paying (it's not cheap, P.S.) for a developmental editor is, "I am an author writing a book."

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: That's the story I'm telling myself. So, what does a person who's writing a book do? They write their book, and they send their pages to their editor.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Right? I really needed that to confirm the identity that I had chosen for this particular output.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. And the story I guess I'm telling myself now is, "I have a program that is created by someone who knows what they're doing, isn't just looking up YouTube videos and researching themselves. And so, I follow that expertise." Like I have the story of, "I'm the kind of person who listens to someone who's an expert in their field, and takes their feedback and their advice on." And in saying that out loud, I realize that's like very much a Pete story in all different areas. But in this particular example, it's like, "I trust the expert to tell me what to do. And I'm the kind of person, I'm an Upholder, who is going to do what the expert told me to do." So, that's my story.

Jen: So what's really interesting here is, you and I both have identity stories wrapped up in what we're spending our money on. And I'm thinking of, "What's the opposite identity story?" For me, it's, "I'm an imposter." Which I just think is so interesting, because making this commitment and paying an editor has helped me overcome my imposter syndrome about writing a book.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Clearly, she wouldn't have wanted to work with me if I was a total and complete imposter. I had to pitch my book idea to her. She had to say that it was interesting, that it had promise, and that she felt that she could help. That helped me overcome my imposter, and instead assume the identity of writer.

Pete: Fascinating. It almost invalidated the story that you wanted to tell yourself, that you couldn't because of imposter syndrome. Wow. And then for me, I think that the opposite would be, "You're someone who isn't taking seriously their health, their physical health and their mental health, and is pretending like the pain your suffering is okay." And I'm just like not. Like, I'm very much someone who believes in looking after oneself, physically and mentally. So, it validates that story. It helps me validate that story.

Jen: Yes. Okay. So I would love for us to just flip this around for a second, because so many of our listeners are freelancers who are constantly in this battle with themselves about pricing, and fairness, and value, and worth, and all of that. So, I wonder...listeners, especially listeners who are freelancers, can you hear how we, the clients, so desperately need you to charge us so that we can take ourselves seriously? That if you don't appropriately charge for your services, we, the clients, don't get the thing that we need. Which is, yes, we need the service. But we also need the story. That is part of what we're paying for.

Pete: Mmm. Yes, yes, yes, yes. There's a really, really easy and actionable prompt, I guess, that I've done once before, which I'll give to the listeners. Which is, write down ten services that you have paid for in the last twelve months, eighteen months, whatever. And then, to Jen's point, just think about, "What was the story you were telling yourself when you purchased this?" Because we all engage a freelancer, or a product, or a company at some point to help us solve a problem. And that's the same thing that you're offering as a freelancer, is, "Here, let me help you solve this problem."

Jen: Yeah. Two different stories just came into my mind. One of them, you were a part of, and the other one literally just happened today. So the one you were a part of...once upon a time, an alum from the Big Ideas Lab came to us because she had been approached by a company about delivering one of her workshops that she had developed in the Big Ideas Lab, and was curious about how to price it. And so, she wrote down a number. And then, you and I had a side conversation. And we both came up with, "Add a zero." And she was like, "What?" And so, she did. She added a zero, sent in the proposal, and the client didn't even bat an eye. Was like, "Great." So the takeaway from that was, one, our client was going to completely undersell herself to her client, which maybe wouldn't have resulted in the client wanting to book her. Because if the value isn't what is expected on paper, how do you know that you're actually getting the thing that you needed? And then the other piece of that is, when you're dealing with...in this particular case, it was corporate. When you're dealing with corporate clients, they have budgets that are specifically allocated to bringing people in to facilitate and deliver keynotes and such, and they know what the market value is of a talk or workshop. So, to go under that isn't doing them a favor. How does that make them look to their colleagues, that they went to the bargain bin for the leadership development program? Like, that's not helpful. And the same thing happened with the second example. I had a client today who was telling me that she was thinking of offering her workshop for free to a corporation. I was like, "No, no, no, no, no." Because not only is it devaluing your work, it harms that department's leadership development budget for next year. Because if they don't spend all the money that they've been allocated, then they won't get that money next year to spend. So, you're not helping develop leaders by giving everything away for free.

Pete: Yeah. Okay. I feel like there's a couple of things I want to pull out of that, both of those brilliant examples. One is, the rule here isn't just, "Always add a zero." So I feel like I just want to say that out loud.

Jen: No, no, no, no. Wouldn't that be amazing if that was the rule?

Pete: I know, "Just add a zero." What we're really saying is...I feel like there's a couple of things. One is like really understanding your "who's it for", and the people you're serving. And if I think back to the conversation we had with Seth Godin about genre...

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: ...I feel like there's a point here, which is getting clear within your "who's it for", what's the genre you're playing in? So if you're playing in the corporate leadership training programs genre (which you and I do, and many of our clients do), you should be and need to be aware of what other people are charging within that genre. What does that genre actually look like? Does it look like someone's scraping together $40 to pay for a workshop? No. It looks like corporations having a dedicated budget for development and training purposes for their leaders. So, there's an understanding of the genre you're playing in that is really important here. So, we're using one specific example. But there might be a genre of like, if you're a freelancer helping another freelancer (like the first two examples we gave with me and the gym, and Jen and her writer), that's a slightly different genre. So just getting really clear in "who's it for" and the genre, which will then help you with this pricing story. The other point is slightly tangential, but it's been in my head since we started this episode. Which is, understanding what people are actually paying for.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So, am I actually paying for a book editor, in your example? Sort of, yes. But more likely, I'm paying for the story I can tell myself. I'm paying for the accountability. I'm paying for the tension. I'm paying to be an author. Like, I'm paying so I can tell myself a story that I am an author, or in my case, I am someone who takes seriously their health. Like, I am paying for that story. Which is so much more than the...I feel like what we all think, well, what we often think about as freelancers, in particular, is the transaction of, "I am paying for a strength coach." It's like, very surface level. What I'm really paying for is the story. Now, the leadership program example is very similar. Are you paying for the leadership training program? Yes, but what you're really paying for is the story. I can tell my boss (I, being the purchaser, the person working at the company), I can tell my boss, "Hey, boss. I just ran this amazing workshop with this incredible human by the name of Jen Waldman. All the people were blown away. Like, how good am I? You should promote me." That's what they're buying. They want to buy that story.

Jen: Yes. And I'm thinking about...like, we've dug into this a little bit lately. "Who's it for?" "Who else is it for?" "What's it for?" "What else is it for?" And in that leadership development example, you're absolutely right. The person who is ultimately seeking out the facilitator and making the final decision about bringing them in, that is absolutely the story that they get to tell themselves. And who else is it for? All of the people who are going to be in the workshop. Who now see themselves, in the eyes of their company, as leaders, as people who deserve to be invested in.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And that is also an incredible story for people to tell themselves.

Pete: Yeah. I have one other example in my head at the moment, which maybe is worth sharing too, which is the co-working space idea. So in Melbourne, Australia, we're in a fortunate position at this point with Covid and restrictions, where offices are starting to open up a little bit. So people are starting to ask themselves the question of, "Do I want to go back to an office? What does it look like to go back to an office? Will I go back one day a week, or full-time, or not at all?" And so, all of these interesting conversations are happening. And I'm having this conversation with myself about going back to a co-working space. And the first...it feels so weird to say this, but the first discussion with myself was around, "If you're only going to go once or twice a week, which is kind of what I'm leaning towards, is it worth the investment? When you've got internet, you've got water, you've got the ability to work from home already, so what are you actually paying for?" And I was like, "Well, that's silly. I don't need to pay for it because I've got those things." And then, I started thinking about it more. And I was like, "Actually, what am I really paying for? I'm paying for the community that I get to be a part of. I'm paying for the potential to meet another collaborator. I'm paying for the story I get to tell myself which is, 'I am an extrovert, and a social being, and being in a co-working space enables me to thrive in that space, not always working on my own.'" So there's this like really long, complicated story that's actually more important. The thing I'm actually paying for is almost like a biological imperative to be surrounded by other people, at least a couple of days a week. So, I just think that is another example I've been thinking about a little bit.

Jen: Ooh, I love that. I love that so much. You're also paying for the story that your work is important enough to have its own designated location, which I know you love a designated location. That's like part of your jam. "I've got one table for writing, and one table for brainstorming, and one table for podcasting..." Am I right? Am I right?

Pete: I have twelve tables. I have twelve tables in my house, yes.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Okay, so here's what I think we've been poking at throughout these last eighteen minutes or so. As freelancers, we come up against this story that we tell ourselves, that charging people for our services is uncomfortable, and messy, and maybe unfair, and maybe not worth it. And what I think we've at least started to uncover is that your clients need you to charge them, because it helps them to become the people they mean to be. That it's actually, in the end, not about you at all when it comes to your pricing. It is all about your clients.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.