The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 127 - Comparison

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, listeners. Before we get to this week's episode, we have some pretty exciting news to share. The Big Ideas Lab is back. Yay! We're so excited about this. If you are someone who has really good ideas, but you don't know exactly how to share them in a meaningful and impactful way, this is for you. You've probably heard Pete and me talking about how we take our ideas and turn them into keynotes and workshops that we deliver all over the globe. That does not happen by luck or by magic, that happens by design. And we'd love to teach you the tools, the techniques, and the skills to turn your own ideas into high impact content that you can share. You can find out all the information at thelongandtheshortpodcast.com/bigideaslab. The next session runs March 22nd to April 30th. This is a very intense six weeks. The applications are closing on March 15th, or whenever the session is full, whichever comes sooner. And last time, friends, it filled up before the deadline. So, I encourage you to get over to the website and get your application in if you're interested in joining us. And now, on to this week's episode.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: I've been trying to piece together an aha moment, and I feel like you might be able to help me with this. And the aha moment falls somewhere in the center of a Venn Diagram.

Jen: Okay, let me get out my pen.

Pete: That has to do with...on one side, comparison and compare.

Jen: Oh.

Pete: And on the other side, steal like an artist. And I'm curious about the intersection of these two things. I know that comparison can be unproductive. And I know that stealing like an artist can be productive. So, I'm trying to figure out what that means.

Jen: Ooh, juicy. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So in saying all of that, I'm trying to figure out if it's actually a Venn Diagram I'm talking about, or it's just how these two concepts are related. Are they related? What's the tension between the two? That's really what I'm trying to figure out.

Jen: I feel like first things first, we have to unpack your relationship to both of these things. Because if I heard you correctly, stealing like an artist is a good thing, and comparing yourself is a bad thing. So, can you just talk me through that?

Pete: Yeah. I would say (to be slightly less definitive), stealing like an artist can be a good thing, and comparison can be a bad thing.

Jen: Which, I think, means that stealing like an artist can be a bad thing, and comparison can be a good thing.

Pete: Exactly. That's what I'm trying to get clear on. So, thank you. Alright, so the reason I say comparison can be a bad thing, let's start there. Is that, what I know and what I've observed in clients, and friends, and all of those things, especially freelancers or business owners, is: the moment you start to compare your success, or progress, or fill-in-the-blank with someone else, is the moment you perhaps get caught up in the fact that you are not doing enough, being enough, trying enough, making enough progress. So I feel like we've used this example a lot (maybe in the early iterations of our podcast), but when we first started doing a podcast, it would have been crazy for us to compare ourselves to a Gimlet Media podcast, because Gimlet Media is a production company with I don't even know how many podcasts at this point. They've been doing it for years, and years, and years. They have more resources, more skills, more techniques, all of that. And so it would be like ridiculous for us to compare ourselves to them, because we just know we're not going to be in the same league as them as we start. And I feel like I've seen so many people putting off starting something, whether it's a project, or a business, or just moving forward an idea, because they compare themselves to someone who's been doing it for so long. And they're like, "Well, my production quality is not that good, so I can't start."

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: So that's, I guess, the context by what I mean, when I feel like comparison can be dangerous. And you could tie in social media to that. There's enough research and conversations out there about the danger of how social media just creates comparisons between, "Everyone else's life is incredible." And you're just sitting there on Instagram, like, "Well, my life's not incredible like these people." So, that's the dangerous side. Steal Like an Artist is a great book written by Austin Kleon, which we've talked about before, you and I. And the concept is that there are no new ideas, only existing ideas that we can build upon. So we should and can take existing ideas (which I feel like is what you and I do in every episode of this podcast) and try and iterate them, try and put our own spin on them to create more ideas, and more innovations, and more conversations, which feels like a very productive thing. So that's the context between why I think one might be bad, and one might be good. Questions? Comments?

Jen: I mean, always. Always. A dear friend of mine, Di Ana Pisarri (who's an incredible coach), says, "Compare leads to despair." And I think there's so much truth in that. And maybe there's like a ghost word or a shadow word at the beginning of that sentence, which is "'Non-intentional' compare leads to despair." But there are times when you intentionally compare, in order to learn something. Simon Sinek calls this, "Study your Worthy Rivals." And so sometimes that intentionally comparing (so there's that intention language), so that what? I'm comparing the quality of our podcast to that of a Gimlet Media podcast, so that what? So that we can see where we have room to grow, so that we can learn more about how long silences really should be when they're effective, or, you know, x, y, and z. So that feels like really useful comparison, which then leads to stealing like an artist. So maybe it's not a Venn Diagram, maybe it's an arrow from one to the other. And I'll just give you...I had this thing happen to me a couple of weeks ago, which I think I might have told you about. I had been lurking around Clubhouse for a couple weeks trying to get the lay of the land. And I was like, "I'm going to be very intentional, and I'm going to learn everything I need to know before I host a room." And then I got a notification that said, "So-and-so..." (who I would consider my Worthy Rival), "...just joined clubhouse." And literally three seconds later, I scheduled my first room. I was like, "There is no way that this person is going to host a room before I do, not a chance." So in that moment, comparison actually led me into positive action.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. You just unlocked what I was struggling with, I think, for the last little while. Which was, I feel like comparison can be helpful at times. Because in order to steal like an artist, I need to understand what other people are doing. And kind of, by definition, I think understanding what other people are doing is going to bring about comparison. So, thank you so much for helping me unlock that.

Jen: Yeah. I think what's really important here is (we talk about this so much at my studio) having some sort of a rubric in mind, or some sort of a structure that helps you to take a more objective perspective as you are studying your Worthy Rivals, or comparing. So, it would not be useful for me to look at what Gimlet Media is doing without any sense of what I'm trying to learn from looking at it. Because then I can come away being like, "What is the point? They're so much bigger. I'll never get there." But if I say, "I want to see, on a technical level, what are they doing with silences in their podcasts? Oh, okay, now I'm learning something about that." So I'm going in with a very specific intention of the kind of information I'm looking for, rather than just like hoping that it organically happens in the moment.

Pete: Yeah. So the reason this has been swirling around in my head...I wasn't even sure if I was going to give this context. It feels a bit imposter-y to even say it, but here we go. I've been thinking a lot about the people we always talk about on this podcast.

Jen: You mean Seth Godin, and Simon Sinek, and Brene Brown?

Pete: Brene Brown, Simon Sinek, Derek Sivers, Debbie Millman...

Jen: Tim Ferriss.

Pete: Tim Ferriss, and Adam Grant was the other one I was noodling on.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I was looking at them, not at all because I think I am...I don't even think they're Worthy Rivals, I think they're more like people that are at the top of their field doing really amazing work that I admire. So, it's almost like a step above Worthy Rival. It's like, someone you admire as a hero, or a mentor, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know what the word is. But I was looking at them and thinking, "What do they do, or how do they think about their work?" And we've been talking a lot about freelancing lately...and I actually had you up in this list of people as well. And I was like, "What do they all have in common? How do they think about freelancing, and their work that I could learn from?" So in a way, I was comparing myself to look at, "What am I doing versus what are they doing?" Again, I feel like an imposter putting myself in this conversation. But not to imagine that I will be them, but to figure out (like the Gimlet example) what I can learn from them. And the aha moment that I had...it was quite a big one that I'm still trying to figure out what to do with. Which was, many of the people that I just mentioned are actually employed by a university.

Jen: Hmm.

Pete: And so in that case, are maybe not true freelancers. They have some sort of security blanket, or some sort of place to practice the stories they tell, the keynotes they give, even the writing that they do. They test their ideas in this safe environment, in a university. And a good portion of them are entrepreneurs, not actually freelancers, by the definition that you and I go by, which is from Seth. Which is that they're creating something that's bigger than them. And basically, it got me to this point, and I was like, "Oh, so this is...if I want to learn from them, do I need to go and get a job at a university? Or become an entrepreneur? Or like, what does that look like?" So that, to me, became the missing thing that I'm still now trying to wrap my head around.

Jen: Oh, this is so rich. This is so, so, so rich. Because I, like you, do study people like Brene, and Seth, and Simon, because the work they're doing is so, so, so meaningful. But maybe like the flip side of this...and this might come from my years of actually standing center stage in a literal spotlight for, you know, an audience. I have no desire to have a career that resembles Seth, or Brene, or Simon. Because I'm at this point now, I like being behind the scenes. Even though, obviously, I'm hosting this podcast. So like, part of me likes being out front. But I do not want that kind of spotlight. So, I look at some of the stuff they're doing...and maybe this is my version of steal like an artist. It's like, "Okay, Brene Brown takes her ideas, ideas she shared many times, and then she simplifies them for Netflix specials. So she finds the absolute nugget, and is able to deliver it to an audience that might not already have familiarity with her work. How can I do that for when I'm outside the Jen Waldman Studio audience, or outside The Long and The Short Of It Podcast audience? How can I simplify down to the smallest version of the big idea, for people who don't have the context?" But I'm not saying to myself, "How can I get a Netflix special?"

Pete: Right. And neither am I. I think part of the realization, or in this comparison was, "Oh, maybe you're looking at the wrong people."

Jen: Oh, interesting.

Pete: So maybe the realization was, "Oh, maybe you need to find a true freelancer to compare yourself to." That's what I was trying to wrap my brain around. Because I've...we've talked about, I identify as a freelancer.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so it was kind of like, "Am I looking at the wrong people?"

Jen: Oh, that's so interesting.

Pete: Or, to your point, you just take what you can off that group of individuals and then go, "Okay, and it's worth also looking at other people as well. Like, let's have some diversity of thought."

Jen: Yeah. That's a really, really interesting point. For people who haven't read Steal Like an Artist (and maybe I should go grab the book off my shelf), I kind of feel like we should define what "steal like an artist" means.

Pete: Mmm, yeah. We're not talking about plagiarism, first and foremost.

Jen: Right. Ding, ding, ding.

Pete: We're not talking about taking something that someone else said, and then just saying, "I said this." That's plagiarism. That is not right. And what we're talking about...how I've always thought about "steal like an artist" is "yes, and." So it is, "Yes, Seth Godin has this idea that he talks about around the dip, or Simon Sinek has this great idea that he talks about around start with why." So, acknowledge that. Which we do in this podcast, a great example, we call them out all the time. And then, we try and build on them. So, we're stealing the idea. But then, like an artist, we're trying to interpret it in different ways, or put our own filter on top of it, or twist it to the left and just kind of build upon the ideas that have already existed. So, that is how I've always thought about it. And the book...it's like a beautiful little short book that's illustrated, and it's kind of like ten steps to stealing like an artist, or ten ways to steal like an artist.

Jen: I have to see if I can find this video. Back when I was the Chair of Theater for the National YoungArts Foundation, at one of our galas, Gregory Hines' mentee...so Gregory Hines is one of the most famous American tap dancers of all time. May he rest in peace. True genius. And Andrew Nemr, who was mentored by Gregory Hines, did this whole piece where he was tapping while talking about all the lessons Gregory Hines had taught him. And one was that the greatest tap dancers are thiefs. And basically, "I'm going to show you a step. Now you do the step and you add a sound, or you change the weight, or you move it from toe to heel. So I'm going to give you the thing, and then you be the thief. And you add that little thing that makes it yours."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And that's what that reminded me of. It was such a compelling piece. I'm going to see if I can find it. And if I can, I'm going to drop it in the Box O' Goodies.

Pete: Yes, I love that. I love that. I mean, again, I feel like all of our episodes are a testament to this. My TEDx talk is a testament to this. I didn't come up with the idea that we're all imposters, I learnt that and then I built upon it. So that's, I think, what we're talking about when we're talking about stealing like an artist.

Jen: Can I just read the first couple sentences of Steal Like an Artist? Because I think it's, it's just funny. "Every artist gets asked the question, 'Where do you get your ideas?' The honest artist answers, 'I steal them.' How does an artist look at the world? First, you figure out what's worth stealing. Then, you move on to the next thing."

Pete: Yes, yes. That's the compare bit. That's the comparison, right? What's working? You compare other people, and what they're doing, and what ideas they have, so that you can then build upon them.

Jen: It's funny. And then he has a quote from David Bowie, which is so brilliant. "The only art I'll ever study is the stuff that I can steal from."

Pete: Yeah. Well, and I think like in a tech sense. So in the technology world, there is a huge movement and a really important movement to open source software. Which means you publicly share how you build software so that others can build upon it, iterate it, make it better. That is stealing like an artist. So in years gone by, we've got all these big tech companies that like hold on to their code, and they consider that their IP. There is now this really important movement (Wikipedia is the perfect example) where you say, "Here is all of the code, open source, anyone can edit this. Let's make this better. Let's build better things. Let's create better work, and society, or art." And in order to do that, you have to encourage people to compare, and then steal like an artist.

Jen: Yes. I love this conversation so much. Because as an artist myself, I know how important it is to be able to seek out other people whose work I admire, and study the heck out of it so that I can borrow or steal. And maybe this idea that "comparison is bad" has inadvertently caused a lot of artists to shortchange themselves by determining that, "Looking at other people's work makes me a bad artist." And it doesn't. It doesn't make you a bad artist. It makes you an honest artist.

Pete: Yeah. I think that's a really good observation. That you might compare yourself to someone and go, "Well, look at all them coming up with all these unique ideas..."

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: "...How am I supposed to come up with all these unique ideas? I can't." And the book Steal Like an Artist, and the concept, is basically saying, "No one's coming up with unique ideas. They're building upon, riffing on existing ideas." I mean, Simon talks about in his latest book, "I built this off the back of Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse." Like, there's literally a book with the same title.

Jen: Right, right. Oh my gosh. So I think where we started was with a Venn Diagram, but it seems that where we've ended was with a pathway. Where it starts with identifying people whose work you admire, and then intentionally and objectively using comparison as a tool to learn about yourself so that then you can take what you've learned and turn it into something new. In other words, steal like an artist.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.