The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 136 - Multi-Hyphenates

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: So there's a word that has been like circulating around in a bunch of different conversations that I've been involved in recently, and it's forced me to pause and think about this word and what it means. And I just feel like it is a word that you would have a lot of thoughts on and be able to help me unpack a little more.

Jen: Okay. What is this word? What is this magical word?

Pete: Well, I guess it's two words with a hyphen in the middle. The word is "multi-hyphenate".

Jen: Wait a minute, are you being serious right now?

Pete: Of course, I'm being serious. The word is "multi-hyphenate." I've got it up on my screen in front of me, because I had to get the definition.

Jen: I literally just finished recording an interview (literally, just) for the Dear Multi-Hyphenate podcast. So, my thoughts are fresh.

Pete: Well, this is too good to be true. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay. Definition...context...where this has come from. I have heard this word come up through a number of different communities I'm involved in. In particular, I think, folks who are also in your community. You and I have spoken before about how we do a bunch of work with the same group of people, those that identify as artists, those that are changemakers and are pivoting and using their skills in unique and interesting ways outside of just being performers. And so the word that I actually hadn't heard of, or I certainly hadn't heard used frequently...this word (or two words) "multi-hyphenate" has come up I want to say like twenty times in the last week.

Jen: Trendy.

Pete: Yeah, it's #trending. And I am curious about what it means, how you think about it, whether it's something to aspire to, whether it's a superpower, all of it.

Jen: Ooh, okay. This is really interesting. Because like I said, literally just wrapped interviewing with Michael Kushner, who is the host of the Dear Multi-Hyphenate podcast. And Michael's definition has to do with proficiencies, like having multiple proficiencies, which I find really interesting because I'm not sure that's how I had wrapped my own brain around this. I guess I have always been a multi-hyphenate. So it's really never felt like that big of a deal to me to have multiple pursuits or interdisciplinary activities going on. But apparently, to other people, it's like a big deal to be able to name all of the different things that you're doing. So, I thought it was interesting to try to name it as proficiencies. And I actually, when he asked me to name mine, I totally failed. And instead, I named identities, because that's really how I see my multi-hyphenateness. That, I am an artist. I am a director. I am choreographer. I am a teacher. I am a podcaster. Etc, etc. Once upon a time, I heard someone use the term "multi-potentialite", which I sort of found jazzy and exciting. So my immediate reaction to this topic is, "Hell yes. Let us celebrate the multitudes of ourselves, and lean into all of the various things that we can pursue simultaneously. All the different skill sets we can apply simultaneously. That we don't have to only be one thing." And I'll tell you, as an artist, that is a myth that is perpetuated and many people buy into, that you can only be one thing at a time and if you pursue any of your other interests, that means you're not a "real artist". And I just say that's a bunch of bull honk.

Pete: Bull honk. So the thing I'm noodling on now then is, the multi-hyphenate...so is it, to your point, is it interests? Is it identities, like you mentioned? Is it skill sets? Is it hobbies? Like, I've been trying to wrap my head around that. And behind that question has been what I've been exploring for myself, is like, "Am I a multi-hyphenate? Is everybody a multi-hyphenate? If I'm interested in a bunch of different things, which I am, does that make me a multi-hyphenate?" And so I've tried to work out, is it skills? Is it professions? Is it identities? Like, what do you think of?

Jen: Well, this is the aha moment I've been trying to unpack a bit in the very recent few hours since I spoke to Michael Kushner (and now to you), is that I think maybe what is true among the multi-hyphenates that I know and admire is that their hyphen potentials come from their "Whats" and that they're very purpose driven people. So like just as an example, Michael Kushner (the Dear Multi-Hyphenate podcast host) calls himself a storyteller. And so, the way he tells stories is through his podcast, through his acting, through his photography, etc, etc. But at the heart of it all is storytelling. And those different ways of expression all come back to the center. Does that make sense?

Pete: It does. It does, yeah. I'm just...maybe the confused look on my face that you're observing is me trying to put that same lens on myself, basically.

Jen: Okay. Okay. Can you do it out loud?

Pete: I guess so, yeah.

Jen: Instead of making that crazy face at me.

Pete: I was just thinking of...I've thought about this a lot. I guess because it's almost like subconsciously, I've started thinking about how this applies to me. And I guess I started to realize, "Wow, you're interested or curious about a lot of things, Pete." And like, I've been down so many different rabbit holes of late. And some of them we've talked about on this podcast, some of them we haven't. So like, I have an interest in start-ups. I have an interest in corporates. I have experience in working with both. I have an interest in investing. I have an interest in the real skills of leadership, of which a lot of my work is focused on at the moment around empathy, and imposter syndrome, and leading with a vision, and through teamwork, and collaboration, and innovation. But then, like I have an interest in golf. I have an interest in swimming. I have an interest in CrossFit. I have an interest in AFL football, which is a crazy sport that Australians play. I have an interest in coffee. I have an interest in food. Mindfulness. Meditation. Morning routines. Travel. Artistry. The things that you've taught me, and that your community has taught me. I have an interest in podcasts. I have an interest in travel. Like, there's so many things. And I've been trying to grapple with, is that awesome? Does that make you a multi-hyphenate? Are you like thinking about too many things, so you're being crazy, and you just need to slow down and think about one thing at a time? So, that's the like me thinking out loud about: how does this apply to me? Now if I think about my "Why"...which is what you mentioned, is we look at it through the lens of your "Why". You know, for me, I have talked about being a...well, the business that I started is called Human Periscope, because it's about helping others see things they can't. I guess you could apply that to all of these things. Is like, you know, I have a particular perspective on coffee, or golf, or swimming that might be different to others, and maybe that helps them see things they can't. So, I guess it applies?

Jen: Well, I think maybe this is where Michael's definition is needed, to add some nuance. That, yes, you make a nice pour-over and you're interested in coffee, but (not to put words in your mouth, but here I go putting words in your mouth) I don't know if you would say you are proficient in the art of coffee. Harvesting, roasting, and brewing. You know how to make the cup that you make for yourself, but you're not necessarily like a coffee maker.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah, I would say that's fair. Yeah. I do think I know more than most though.

Jen: Fair, fair, fair. So, I wonder if the proficiency element is really important here. Because like, I have an interest in Mount Everest, but I am not proficient climbing it. I would never call myself a mountain climber. I love reading about that, but that's not my proficiency. There's not a level of excellence that I can contribute to that particular thing.

Pete: Ooh, I like that. Okay, okay. This is important. I needed that like criteria for me to help distill my interests down to things that you might be proficient in. My next question becomes (which we don't have to unpack), is like: How does one know whether they're proficient in something? What does it mean to be proficient in something? And so, I can do some noodling on that later, if you like. If you don't want to go down that path now.

Jen: Well, I kind of feel like we have to, don't you?

Pete: Yeah. I guess my immediate thought is it feels subjective.

Jen: Well, I guess it depends. No, it doesn't depend. No, I'm not sure it's entirely subjective.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: So, you're proficient as a facilitator. How do we know this to be true? Because people are getting results out of workshops that you facilitate.

Pete: Uh-huh. Yep.

Jen: And I would argue that you are a proficient public speaker. How do we know that? Because I have heard people quote talks you've given. The talks that you give land. So while there is certainly subjectivity to it, I'm not sure that the whole thing is entirely subjective.

Pete: Yeah. Fair. I hear your point. I hear your point. I guess the other thing I was getting hung up on is that idea that the more you know about a topic, the more you realize you don't know. And so like, maybe the subjectivity of proficiency is internal, in particular. But to your point, if you look externally at the results that a particular proficiency have delivered, you could make the case that one is proficient in it if there has been results, or an impact, or a change has been made because of the thing.

Jen: Mm-hmm. So I am immediately chuckling at myself, because, you know I have a lot of clients who work in the theatre industry. And many of those people ask me to take a look at their websites. And one of the patterns...actually, I don't see this as much anymore. But in the earlier days, an actor whose specialty was musical theater, you would go to their website, and it would say their name, and then underneath their name, it would say, "Actor. Singer. Dancer." And I would go, "I'm not sure you need to spell that out. Because like, every single thing on this website is evidence that you are an actor, singer and a dancer. And I wonder, is there something else that you could share with us that would help us to better understand what makes you so unique in the way you approach your work. And so I'm not anti- saying that you're an actor, singer, dancer, but you're also so many other things." And now I'm chuckling at myself, because I'm wondering like, if we had to, underneath our names, name all the things that we are, what are the things that we would choose? And this is something I personally struggle with, because I do have such a multi-hyphenate identity. Depending on who's asking me, I will often answer differently when someone says, "What do you do?"

Pete: Yeah. Me too.

Jen: So yeah, sometimes I say, "I'm an acting coach." But sometimes I say, "I'm a leadership coach." Sometimes I say, "I'm an artistic director." And sometimes I say, "I'm a theater director." It depends on who I'm talking to.

Pete: Yeah, which is the approach I've taken. And I'm open to be challenged on whether that's a "good approach", but I've always thought of it as leading with empathy. Which is like, okay, so who is asking the question? You know, it's the CEO of a company. So, what's important to that particular CEO? Well, it might be that I am, to your point, a leadership coach, or a speaker. Versus if you're talking to a perfect stranger that you've just met, you know, you might say something else. I think Brene talks about this. Brene Brown has talked about when she gets on an airplane, and if someone asks, "What do you do," and she doesn't feel like talking, she says, "I study shame and vulnerability," and it immediately kills the conversation. Versus, I think, you know, if she might want to talk, she might say, "Oh, I'm an author, and a researcher," and then that will spark a conversation. So I feel like it's worth us understanding, you know, the various things that we...it's almost like we need a master list. And then depending on who's asking us the question, through empathy, we can go, "Okay, this is the most interesting or relevant thing to that person." Or in Brene's case, based on where I'm at, "What do I feel like sharing in order to see where this conversation might go?"

Jen: I don't know if you feel this way, but I see my many hyphens as like an infinite model that, my hope is, I'll keep adding to as my life continues. That I'll be able to get good enough at things that I could add them to the list.

Pete: Totally. Yeah. That's like...I think that's my ultimate dream. In terms of, we've talked about growth mindsets, and how insatiable our appetite is to always learn. Like in all of those example topics that I said, I want to be proficient at all of those and then find others. Like I want to be proficient in mountaineering and hiking, now that you mentioned Mount Everest. I'm like, "Yeah, I want to be good at that, too. I want to understand that." I have this annoyingly insatiable appetite to become proficient at a lot of things.

Jen: So this points me to something that one of my dear friends talks about a lot, this very problematic phrase, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And this sort of like discouraging an interdisciplinary approach to life, and instead, encouraging a more myopic or limited view of what is possible for an individual. And I would just love to see us break that myth apart.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And encourage ourselves and each other to stay open to having multiple trades.

Pete: Yes, please. I think there's been some promising progress in this space, around...especially in corporates and startups. Where once upon a time, you were valued for having practiced the same hard skill, in particular, for decades. And that was like really valued. There's this really important and awesome push at the moment for what they call "Generalists", which is basically just someone who has a variety of proficiencies, someone who is a multi-hyphenate. And that organizations and leaders, in particular, are starting to recognize the tremendous value that that can bring, to have a team and an organization full of multi-hyphenates. As opposed to this myopic, you know, view of the world that is incredibly binary, because you've only ever had one path of experience, if you like.

Jen: Yeah. Okay, so maybe this is so random, but you know who just popped into my head?

Pete: Who?

Jen: Yo-Yo Ma, the great cellist.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: Because when you said, "Someone who practiced a hard skill for potentially decades," when I think about an instrumentalist, in order to be world class (like Yo-Yo Ma is world class), one has to practice the hard skill for decades. And also practice some soft skills, of course. But what's interesting is, you can expand your hyphenation within a particular domain.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So going from instrumentalist, to founding artistic director, and then arranger, and then, you know, whatever other responsibilities he took on with Silkroad, his ensemble. And then there are others who, their hyphens jump domains and move into different industries. So, I just...I don't exactly know what point I'm trying to make, except that there are different varieties of multi-hyphenate.

Pete: Yeah. And I think...well actually, this might be an entirely separate episode. But I think the latter is what I think of when I think of a polymath, which is a different word for a similar thing that we're talking about. I think a polymath is, you know, someone who has basically a really wide range of knowledge and experience across disciplines. And so that latter example you used, when you've got maybe someone who's a, you know, a poet who's written and published poetry but also has this deep fascination with chemistry and artistic endeavors, you might like look at that and go, "Wow, you're a polymath." And so, again, I think maybe there's a separate episode. At what point do you move from like multi-hyphenate to polymath? Are they the same thing? Or is that just a different brand of multi-hyphenate?

Jen: Ooh, that's interesting. Hmm. Very, very interesting.

Pete: So what do we take from all this, Jen, the polymath? And Jen, the multi-hyphenate?

Jen: Well, I think it all comes down to a beautiful quote by Walt Whitman, "I am large, I contain multitudes."

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.