The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 143 - Lead vs. Leader

Transcript:

Jen: Hi there, Peter.

Pete: Hi there, Jen Waldman.

Jen: I find myself having the same conversation over and over again in the last couple of weeks. And it occurred to me that the thing that keeps coming up is something that is probably not industry-specific, and might be helpful to many of the people who listen to this podcast who are in leadership positions. And that thing is something I've been saying to a lot of actors who are going back to the Broadway shows.

Pete: Spill the beans.

Jen: You can either be the lead, or you can be the leader.

Pete: Hmm. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I feel a little shook. You should start with context. Lead versus leader.

Jen: Well, you know, in the world of acting, when you have the biggest part, you are playing the lead. And that is typically something associated with high status. You get the final bow. You get paid the most. You get the biggest dressing room. And people might "look up to you", but that doesn't necessarily mean you're a leader. It doesn't mean people would actually follow you anywhere, or that people are buying what you're selling in terms of belief and vision. And one of the things that's been going on within the theatre industry is a lot of conversation about how we desperately need better leadership. And while we could expect that to come from some of the administrative or producing positions, we could be developing leaders within the acting, design, directing communities. And so with that in mind, I've been saying to people, "Well, you can play the lead, or you can be the leader." And you could do both.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But you don't need to play the lead to be the leader. And this got me thinking about a couple specific examples. But one in particular I'd like to share, which is something my friends from my Wicked days and I used to call "Open Door Elphaba". So for those of you who are listening and don't know the musical Wicked, the lead role is a character named Elphaba, originally played by Tony winner, Idina Menzel. And Idina Menzel was a leader, not just the lead. Backstage, there was very little room for those of us in the ensemble to congregate. And so what she would do since she was onstage almost the whole show, she left her dressing room door open and she actually created like a sitting room area in her dressing room, where we could go in between scenes while she was onstage and have a place to hang out before our next entrance. And after she left, there was a series of Elphabas. Some who had witnessed her leadership and took over as Open Door Elphabas, but sometimes we would go backstage to go into Elphaba's dressing room (it would be an understudy, or maybe it was a new replacement) and the door would be closed. And we'd go, "Oh, Closed Door Elphaba." Like, she's not even in the dressing room. She's onstage. And I remember the feeling of being included, and valued, and seen, and respected. The person who came after Idina Menzel used to leave us snacks, too.

Pete: Aww.

Jen: I mean, so sweet. And then, that feeling of being literally shut out when you had previously been included. And I remember vowing to myself, that I would always strive to be an Open Door Elphaba.

Pete: Which you are, by the way. Which you are.

Jen: Well, I retired acting too early to really make it real. But, you know, I strive in my studio work to be open door.

Pete: Yeah. Because I think the Open Door Elphaba, what you're saying is, "You're a leader, as opposed to just a lead."

Jen: Yes. Exactly.

Pete: And to go back to your original opening, like, yes, this has outrageous application in all industries, right around the world in any industry, I think. So four years ago, I took part in Seth Godin's altMBA as a student. (I think most of our listeners are probably familiar with that part of the story.) And I did so because I was working in a quite successful company in quite a senior role and had, in my mind, stagnated. And in my mind, in order to be put into a new role (into a more of a lead role), I thought that what I needed to do was get more qualifications. And so I looked at MBAs. I looked at Masters of Entrepreneurship and Strategy. I looked at all sorts of different things. And then I stumbled across this altMBA by Seth Godin, who I really respected and had read a lot of books from. It was five weeks. And I was like, "This sounds like a fun experiment. What's the worst that can happen? Like that feels like more my style, because then it'll hopefully equip me with the skills and the techniques to be a leader, or to be in a position to get put into a leadership role." And about two weeks into the workshop, I was in a, like a group call. It was about eighty of us. It was 4:00 AM, for me. I still, I remember this so well. And it was like 4:00 AM. It was freezing cold, it was the middle of winter. I was huddled over my laptop in my childhood home. And the person running the call asked the question, "How have you grown as a leader over the last two weeks?" And I remember not hearing any response after the question was posed. Because what I realized in that moment was implied in that question, was that I was a leader.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: Like, everything came together in that moment for me, at 4:00 AM. To realize, "Oh, wait. Leadership is a choice. Leadership is a practice. And by very nature of the fact that you've chosen to be somewhere like the altMBA with people right around the world, you are choosing to lead in some capacity." I think about that moment for me as being fundamental to the realization that you don't need someone to bestow leadership upon you. In fact, it is a choice. And I think that's what a lot of Seth Godin's work is actually about. There's a book called Choose Yourself, which literally speaks to this. So I just felt like sharing that story in the sense of, like, I feel this in my bones. I feel this in my bones. This realization, this decision that we can and we have the opportunity to make, to be a leader, even though we're not "the lead".

Jen: Yes. Yes, yes. Thank you so much for sharing that story. Funny enough, I've not heard that story from you before. So, that was a first. That was pretty darn cool. So, I'm thinking about another story that I heard. There's a another Broadway star, her name is Sierra Boggess, and she was a guest on our mutual friend Analisa Leaming's podcast, A Balancing Act. And Sierra is most definitely a leader, now. She tells this story of when she was playing Ariel in The Little Mermaid on Broadway, that she was going up to her dressing room and one of the dressers was coming down the stairs at the same time, and they were passing each other. And this dresser stopped her and said, "I want you to know, today's my last show." And she says, "Oh, okay." You know, "Congratulations. Goodbye," or whatever she says. And the person says, "I'm telling you that because in all of the time I've worked here, you've never once said hello to me," and then kept going down the stairs. And she said that that was the moment of like realizing, "Oh my gosh. I have failed in my leadership. Even though I'm the lead, even though I'm taking the last bow, I am the title role but people aren't looking to me as someone who is taking care of them, or taking care of the culture or the environment." And that story, when I heard it, really, really shook me. Because I feel like I've probably been on both ends of that spectrum at some point. But to what you were just sharing, leadership is most definitely a choice. It is an opportunity. We each have to say, "I am willing to lean in, take care of the people around me." And in a world where...my goodness, I'm looking at my own industry and saying, [singing] "Where have all the leaders gone?" Like, come on, leaders. Step up. But I also realize that I can be a leader. I can follow someone else's leadership, and I can also lead.

Pete: Yeah. There's an interesting, not reframe, but insight into leadership that I really liked from...Derek Sivers did a five-minute TED talk (I think it might have been less than five minutes) where he plays this, I think, now viral famous video of this one lone stranger at a concert just dancing like an absolute maniac. And then one person goes over and joins in, three people, five people, the next minute the whole crowd is. I'll put that in the Box O' Goodies. One of the takeaways from that that he articulates is yes, being a leader is hard, and brave, and requires you to be vulnerable. However, it's actually the first follower that turns that kind of lone nut, that lone crazy person into a leader. So that, I think the first follower is actually, in some way, also a leader.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Which I think is important in the context that you're sharing, which is, "Where are all the leaders?" Not only do you have the ability to choose to be one of those leaders, but you actually also have the ability to be a follower or an echo of some other leader that you also believe in. Like, that that is still an act of leadership, I think.

Jen: Yeah. That's so interesting. It makes me feel like we need to do an episode on being a follower.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: Because I think followers maybe don't get like their full value represented in the conversation.

Pete: Yeah, especially the early adopters, in particular. Like, the last person to the party...you know, if you think about the law of diffusion of innovation, where you have early adopters, early majority, late majority, laggards. (I think I probably missed a couple of categories.) But I think the followers who are the laggards, who join the movement because 90% of people have already joined the movement, perhaps that's less of a leader than...well, it is, I think, in my mind, less of a leader than the the second person, the first person, the third person to join that movement, those early adopters. Yeah, maybe there is a separate episode on that, and how that's an act of leadership.

Jen: Yes, and also how mindful we must be of who we are following. Because if, like you said, the moment someone starts to gain their first and then second and third follower, if that's the beginning of a movement, you've got to be intentional about where we're putting that energy.

Pete: Oh, yeah. And also, if you're the leader, if you're the lone person dancing and someone comes to join your movement, someone comes to join in with the dance, then actually recognizing and harnessing those first few followers...I feel like followers is even the wrong word in this moment, but recognizing and-

Jen: Supporters.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Um, comrades. Community.

Pete: Other leaders, fellow leaders.

Jen: Fellow leaders. Colleagues.

Pete: Yeah. Like in the example of the dance, if you turned your back on the next person that came over to dance with you and were like, "I don't want to dance with you. I want to dance on my own," then you've turned your back on your colleagues, followers, other leaders, and the movement probably hasn't been created because you've isolated the people who are valuing the vision or the thing that you're leading. So there's like a, almost like a nurturing of your followers. (Again, I don't really like the word "followers.") But like, there's a nurturing of those first few.

Jen: Which I think brings me back to what I was saying about the person who replaced Idina Menzel. Her name is Shoshana Bean. If you want to hear some of the best singing you've ever heard in your life, google "Shoshana Bean." Holy mackerel. Anyway, because she followed in a Idina's footsteps, she was an Open Door Elphaba. She's the one who left us the M&Ms and the pretzels...

Pete: What a legend.

Jen: ...and all that stuff. I'm curious, now all these years later, if that still is a tradition backstage. It was starting to die out a bit toward the end of my tenure. And I think it points to the fact that followers (we don't love that word), but are also, in a way, inheritors of what the leader has put out there. And actually, that dance video is a great example. Because Person #2 definitely inherited that wacky dance. It kept changing and evolving as it grew, but people were inheriting the basic concept.

Pete: Yeah. And that reminds me of something we've talked about in a few recent episodes around modeling, too. That that first leader (not necessarily the lead, the leader), hopefully they realize it, but whether they realize it or not is modeling the behavior for future leaders, followers, inheritors, whatever we want to call them.

Jen: Yes. And whether that behavior is one that contributes to a positive environment or a negative environment, it is inherited. It's that idea of, you know, "The fish stinks from the head." I guess in this case, we could say, "The fish stinks from the lead." So if the lead is stinky, then everything else is going to stink too. Like if the person who is "leading the company" creates the closed door policy, doesn't learn people's names, doesn't treat people with respect, that is the culture that is going to fester. But if the person chooses leadership, chooses recognizing people's contributions, putting humanity first, treating people with kindness and empathy, that is the culture that is created.

Pete: Yeah. I go back to a couple of things around leadership. One is the definition that leaders create conditions for others to choose new actions. Which (again, as highlighted through this episode) doesn't mean you have to be a lead. That anyone can create the conditions for other people to choose new actions, whether that's through an open door policy, whether that's through being more curious, whether that's through inviting others to dance. And I just realized, that saying...who, I don't know the attribution in the moment. But that idea of, "Be the change you wish to see in the world."

Jen: Well, it's attributed to Gandhi, but some people say he didn't say it.

Pete: Right. Anonymous said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." And I realize that that's a really interesting and simple way of thinking about, "Okay, so I'm not a lead. How do I be a leader?"

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: Get clear on what's the change you wish to see in the world, and then model it.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.