The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 147 - Friendship

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: The last week or so, I've been doing some deep reflection on something that I'm not sure you and I have ever like fully unpacked together. And that is: friendship.

Pete: Friendship. No, you're right. I don't think we've (either online or offline) ever unpacked friendship as a concept. So, this will be fun. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Once upon a time, you and I had a bit of an aha moment that we had moved from colleague to friend. But like, we never really did the deep dive. (So, you know, who knows? Maybe preview of coming attractions.) The reason this has been on my mind...you know, one of my dearest friends passed away a couple of weeks ago. And watching the friends spring into action really made me ask myself, what makes a friend? Do I have any? Like, do I have enough of them? And what about the people I had sort of lost touch with that suddenly were jolted back into my life and it was like as if no time had passed, and we were so close in an instant again? And it got me really wanting to explore the concept of what makes a friend.

Pete: Mmm, I love this. I mean, I think this is good timing for anyone, even those who haven't had someone pass in the last few weeks. One thing I've heard a lot of others say and also thought about this myself is like, the last fifteen months has given everyone a pause, and now we get to decide and do so with a bit more intention. Where do we want to spend our time and energy, if and when things reopen? Which, you know, in many parts of the world they're starting to. And who do we want to spend time with? So I feel like this whole notion of, "Who are the kinds of people that I want to surround myself with? Who are the kinds of people I consider friends? What does that look like? How do I show up as a friend," all of that, I think, is a really timely, relevant, important conversation.

Jen: Okay, so maybe we could start with the two of us. Because I feel like you are probably, in terms of the people who are closest to me, my most recent addition, my most recent addition to the Square Squad.

Pete: I'm the new friend.

Jen: So you and I started as you were my coach, and then we became collaborators. But then at some point, we moved from collaborators to friends. Like, I knew nothing about you when we started the podcast. I knew nothing. And then all of a sudden, I know everything. So, how did we get here?

Pete: It's funny, I think about that, actually, surprisingly often. So, there's all of these little steps that have obviously led to this friendship. But there was definitely two things that come to my mind, or maybe three. The first was at the end of one of our coaching sessions, you actually said to me, "I feel like I know nothing about you." So, we ended up having a bit of a conversation about various things. There was another moment where there was this acknowledgment of, "Oh, I think we just became like mentor and mentor, as opposed to, 'I'm your coach, you're my client.'" And that was like a nice moment that I recall being like, "Basically, we're both coaching each other now. And that's cool."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And then the third moment I definitely remember, the first time we met in person in New York.

Jen: Yeah. Definitely.

Pete: That was a pivotal moment, I think. Which, I guess that was probably the move more to collaborator, but all of the wheels were starting to be in motion for us to eventually become friends.

Jen: Okay, so I've been sitting with this for a little while. And I have found at least one thread to pull about acquiring new friendships. When I think about some of the people in my life who have been, you know, acquired in adulthood as friends, what is the thing that is true across the board? And it comes back to one of my "how's," so I know that this is real. Real friends tell you the truth, even if it hurts them to say it and even if it hurts you to hear it. That's one of the things that I've identified in my adult friendships. Is, I want to be friends with people who are willing to tell me the truth, even when it hurts. And I think you have done that really since the beginning, as a coach. But when we started doing that for each other, I think that was really helpful. And I can think of some other people for whom this is true. But then I'm reflecting on some of the old friendships, my multi-decade friendships. You know, I just turned forty-six so I I have had friends for multiple decades at this point. And the thing that I am recognizing in some of those friendships that have withstood the test of time is the unconditional nature of the love between friends. Like, we have been through it together. We have had issues which would have ended conditional relationships, but chose to work through those things. We have navigated major life milestones together. And so, there's something about that unconditional nature. And I'm wondering like, is our friendship (meaning yours and mine) in a phase where we still are building this trust foundation, where we are having to tell each other the hard things to kind of like test it out? And then does that actually create with your chosen family (you know, the friends), does that create the unconditional love? I don't know. But that's what I've been thinking about.

Pete: That's such a great, rich question. Where my mind goes as you're sharing that, which I think is related, is in my mind, what makes a great friendship or a great friend is (I think this ties into unconditional), is essentially the ability to show up as yourself and be accepted for, embraced, loved, cared for just as who you are, not as who you're pretending to be, not as who you think you need to be, not as who you might be in the future. I mean, there's honestly this sense of belonging and connection, which I think comes from the fact that, in my experience, it's not that common to find a place, to find a person where you feel comfortable enough to just show up as you are. I feel like within my truest, dearest friendships (I definitely include you in this) is like, you just kind of show up as you are in the moment. There's no justification required. There's no disclaimer required. It's just kind of like, "Oh yeah, that's who you are today. That's where you're at today." The other thing that you made me think of is the way that you build trust in a friendship or in any kind of relationship, I guess. And I'm reminded of a podcast that you and I actually went on together with our friends, Rick and Lisa, who host this podcast. (I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies.) And they asked us the question of, how did we think about building trust as a team, or as a friendship, or as a collaboration? And one of the things I remember unpacking in the moment, which maybe it's worth just like unpacking again, was that the only way to know if you can trust someone is to tell them something that you're not sure you can trust them with.

Jen: Yes. Yes, I remember us talking about that on that podcast.

Pete: And so like, I think about the unique situation of us is, you know, with coach and client, you told me a lot of like really vulnerable, important, interesting stuff about your work and the way you're thinking about it, which I think created some level of trust and connection that not all friendships start off with.

Jen: Yeah. There's another element that I noticed in the last week or so that I just found so interesting. I feel like I experienced the true meaning of "water under the bridge."

Pete: Ah, say more.

Jen: Like with some of these friendships that were so so so close, and maybe they had...not that they had even unraveled. But just like, I don't know, we sort of drifted. And it's easy to start to create stories in your head about why, and to create this bridge over troubled water, really. And what was so interesting was that the second we saw each other, none of it existed, all water under the bridge. Which really made me go like, "Huh. Maybe I need to put more faith in the concept of friendship and stop writing these weird narratives to try to like explain why people come in and out of your life, and just, instead, accept that when you have a true friend, the friendship is true."

Pete: Yeah. Wow, that feels quite profound. Is there something in the fact that you see each other? Not all the time, literally, but like, you see each other, you hear each other, you understand one another? Like, is there this level of...yeah, I think the word that comes to mind is understanding-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: -that is not always true?

Jen: Yes. When we're talking about like, true friend...like, I have a lot of friends. But the Square Squad, like the true friends...

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: ...you just don't layer it with all of the bullshit. There's no room for that. Because you care too much about each other to layer that on. And so you're not having to even sift through those layers to get back to the root of what bonded you to each other in the first place, because it's just pure and it's there.

Pete: Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. I guess the other thing I notice as I get older is the reality, maybe, that that Square Squad is a, you know, a sticky note, not an A4 piece of paper.

Jen: That's right. Yeah.

Pete: I'm sure many people can relate to this. But certainly when I was in my twenties, when I was at college and university and living a life as a young adult, you just have so many "friends". And you, I think over the years, begin to realize some of those are transactional, some of those are circumstantial, and that the amount of names that you list on a sticky note as you get older, and older, and older, becomes...I mean, the sticky note probably gets smaller and smaller as you go.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It goes from like an A3 bit of paper to an A4 bit of paper to a sticky note, and I'm sure it'll get even smaller.

Jen: Well, I think that goes to maybe resources and like how much energy, and care, and love it takes to really tend to a friendship.

Pete: Right.

Jen: I heard somewhere that love is an infinite resource. And, you know, you can give everyone a little bit of love. But to give someone like the deep, profound, unconditional love that friendship really requires, it takes effort. It takes effort.

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: And P.S., like I'm saying all of this like as if I'm some friendship expert...quite the contrary. The reason I've arrived at all of this is because I spent the last two weeks asking myself if I am a good friend at all, and like really having to come to terms with the places that I have not been a good friend and want to do better. So, this is not a wisdom that's like fully lived in. This is like, "Oh, I see what I'm striving for now."

Pete: Right. Which I appreciate you sharing, because I think that's the beauty of...well, where I'm coming from, it's the beauty of this podcast. Is, "Here's something that I'm trying to figure out."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Not, "Here's something that I'm an expert in." And honestly, that, to me, is something I really value in a friend (which is kind of meta). Is someone who's willing to say, "Hey, I've got this thing that I'm trying to figure out. Could you talk it through with me? Would you help me figure it out?" There's no ego in this. There's no competition in this. It's the humility and the humbleness to say, "I think I'm trying to be a better human or a better friend, and I'd love to bounce this around with you." And I've found those conversations to be remarkably rare. And I really value those when I get to have them. So like, yeah. I mean, it feels obvious, but you very much are at the top of my list of Square Squaddies, Jen Waldman, and I find you to be an excellent friend.

Jen: Aww, shucks. Well, I almost feel like we could do a whole series on friendship because I feel like I have a million more things to say. But here's my final thought on the matter. Something else I learned is that a friend not only listens, but they listen deeply to the point of being able to remember and recall. And when I arrived back at my apartment to the news of my beautiful friend Di Ana Pisarri's death, there was a bouquet of flowers waiting for me from a giant Australian. And on the card was a quote from Lin Manuel (so you clearly were listening), and then exactly the words that you knew I would need to hear in order to find my strength to move forward. So I say to you, thank you, my friend.

Pete: You're very welcome. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.