The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 152 - Pricing Your Gift

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I was going through the back catalogue of Brené Brown's podcast, and one of the episodes in particular blew my mind.

Jen: Not surprising.

Pete: Right? Not surprising. However, what might be surprising is the topic of the conversation. What do you think when you think of Brené Brown aha moments, mind blown? What do you think of?

Jen: Vulnerability.

Pete: No.

Jen: Shame.

Pete: No. But these are the classics, right? This is what you expect.

Jen: Bravery/courage.

Pete: Sort of, but not quite.

Jen: Leadership.

Pete: No. The topic of conversation was actually pricing.

Jen: Pricing. What? Alright, I can't wait to hear about this. Pricing and Brené Brown, color me curious. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, so the episode in question is an interview with Priya Parker. The incredible Priya Parker, who has written The Art of Gathering, which is one of my favorite books of the last few years. And so, I guess I have to actually attribute this aha to Priya Parker, but it was in the conversation with Brené. So, let me just give you the context. The two of them are having this great conversation about the work that Priya does, the work that Brené does as facilitators, as speakers, but also as folks who help other companies and help other leaders. And Priya shares this great story, she's talking about this work that she used to do with a business coach. So, she had a business coach that was helping her with her particular business. And on one particular day, she tells this story that the business coach was looking at the pricing of the services that Priya offered. And he said to her, "Oh, why is the number so low on this particular thing?" And she replied, "Oh, that's because I could do it in my sleep. Like, it's really easy for me to do that thing." And then the business coach said, "If it's really easy for you, that is your gift and you should be charging the most for that."

Jen: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

Pete: I know. And so, I had the same reaction as Brené. Which she was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again. Say that three times." And you know how Brené like just, I love the way that she reacts to these aha moments. Because I was like ready to pull my car over and pause, and like, "Wait a minute. I need to process that." And I just feel like there's probably twelve episodes in this. But like, there's definitely at least one. That, "That is your gift, and so you should be charging the most for that." I just think it's rich. What do you think?

Jen: Woah. Yes. I mean, it seems so obvious in hindsight. But in the moment, I feel like my mind is exploding. So just bear with me, as I settle down now.

Pete: Please.

Jen: If someone else could do it in their sleep, they wouldn't be hiring someone to do it for them.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: So it kind of stands to reason that if you can do it in your sleep, and someone else needs to outsource it or hire an expert to do it, that maybe it's not as easy for everyone else as it is for you. Okay, so my mind has wrapped itself around that. But the piece that I'm really interested in is the emotional experience of putting a price on something that is easy for you and hard for others. And maybe this is where the Brené comes in, the guilt around pricing your services appropriately, even when your services are easy/simple for you to render.

Pete: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's the juicy nugget. Is, we've talked about before (and we can link to the episode in the Box O' Goodies around pricing) that money is a story. Pricing is a story for the people that we're serving, or the people that we're potentially going to serve. That the prices we put on the services that we offer, or the products that we offer tells a story for them, or they can tell themselves a story about that thing based on the price. So, we've talked about that. And it's also a story that you have to tell yourself.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And that, I think, is the really hard part. Well, there's actually...I feel like there's two hard parts, and they're very related. Which is, one is the empathy to understand: What might the story be from the other person? And then the second is, can you wrap your brain around and get comfortable with the story that you're going to tell yourself about something feeling easy not being worth as much? Like there's just, ah, there's so much complexity wrapped up in that story, I think.

Jen: Ooh. Yes. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. I'm sitting here replaying my whole day because Jake (who is our Studio Manager) and I sat down today and basically dove into some spreadsheets of potential business models when we get back into our brick-and-mortar studio. And I'm realizing something I was bringing into the conversation (and I'm so curious if this came up on the Priya Parker episode) was comps within the industry. Like, what are other people charging for a similar service? But now, I'm recognizing the thing that I was leaving out of that conversation was: People who are able to do this at the level we are able to do this, what are those people charging? Not just like, what is anyone who offers a similar service to us charging? But what is someone who's working at a similar quality level charging?

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: Did that come up at all?

Pete: I don't recall. So what came up (I didn't actually necessarily articulate this) is, she was one of many entrepreneurs in this group coaching. And so, it wasn't just that Priya had done this. It was actually that every entrepreneur in this group had done the same thing.

Jen: Woah.

Pete: Which was the thing they found easy, they put a number around it that was lower than what this business coach thought it should be. And so, I thought that was really interesting. To your point on comps, I don't think it came up but I think it's a really rich point. It actually reminds me of genre a little bit. So, if I'm playing in a specific genre...so if I'm, I don't know, if I'm a keynote speaker (which, you and I have worn that hat and still wear that hat from time to time at conferences or organizations), there is a specific genre of keynote speaking. And within that genre, there are certain price points if you compare to others, that are kind of industry standard.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And there are price points that are like, "Okay, you're a ten-time bestselling author, and you have been doing this for thirty years." Pete Shepherd probably shouldn't be comping himself against someone like that.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because I haven't written ten bestsellers, and I haven't been doing it for thirty years. So, however, I'm also not straight out of university and just like decided to spin up a Google presentation and now I'm speaking. So there's like, there's differing levels within the genre, I guess. There's sub-genres within the genre.

Jen: This reminds me of a story...you and I were friends when this happened. I had been asked to speak in Paris for a major, major, major company, and they were going to fly me over for the day. I was going to do a forty-five minute session, so it was going to be thirty-minute keynote, fifteen minutes of Q&A. And then, fly me right back. And when the speaking fee was proposed, I almost fell over because I had never been paid that much to speak before. And I said to the person who was working on the contract, "I'm feeling so guilty about this number. I mean, I'm literally flying over there for the day, and speaking for thirty minutes." And he was like, "Jen, they're not paying you for the thirty minutes. They're paying you for your thirty years of experience." And I was like, "Right. Right, right, right." Like I was looking for a story to tell myself that, honestly, wouldn't put me as far on the hook. I was trying to sort of write it off as like, "It's no big deal." It's like, it's so similar to what you're talking about with this Brené Brown episode. "It's so easy for me. I'm just talking for thirty minutes. Like, I do this all day, every day." It's like, "Right. That's why they're bringing you."

Pete: Okay, yeah. This is...I think this might be an aha moment for me. Which is, I guess the question that you just helped me unlock is: Why is it easy? And I think in your example (and I imagine this applies to Priya Parker's example), the reason it's easy is because you've done so many reps over so many years that have gotten it to a point where you're comfortable, you feel flow, you maybe get excited, you find it easy and joyful to do the thing because of the fact that you've done it for thirty years, or twenty years, or ten years. And so, that is really interesting. I think that helps with the story because then you realize, exactly to your point, "They're not paying me for this thirty minute block or this forty-five minute block. They're paying for the process you went through in order for it to be easy."

Jen: Ooh, yes.

Pete: I wonder if that's a helpful mental model for folks out there.

Jen: Oh my gosh. That really resonated with me, so thank you for restating that. It's making me think of a lot of my clients who are returning to work and having to renegotiate all of these contracts. And it's funny because in the realm of Broadway, which is where a lot of my clients are working, the contract that's being offered is to return to the show that they were doing before everything shut down. And now, I'm recognizing that they really should be playing hardball because there's only a small number of people who know the show well enough to do it right now.

Pete: To make it feel easy, yeah.

Jen: And if they say no or they don't come to terms that are acceptable, that producer is going to have to go hold auditions, hold callbacks, cast someone, build them costumes, get them rehearsed, and put them into the show, instead of this very easy thing of going back to the person who already knows it and is expert in that particular role, and help them glide right back onto the stage.

Pete: Right. Yeah. I love that example. I think it hints at the other thing I've been thinking about since I heard this, and I think has always been present in the way I've thought about pricing my own work as a coach, as a speaker, as a workshop facilitator, as a consultant. Which is: Part of it, yes, there is an element of pricing that is an acknowledgement of the time you're putting in for that particular thing. So part of the cost that the company paid you to go to Paris, of course, was for the effort of going to Paris and delivering that talk. That was a part of it. The other part was the thirty years of experience that you have of reps, of storytelling, of ideation, and bringing this to them. And I actually think the third part of this is (at least this is how I've thought about it, and I think is what you described), is the outcome. So the outcome of you inspiring one hundred of their top leaders in Paris could be that one hundred of their top leaders in Paris are then able to tell more stories to clients which then increases their revenue, or inspires their sales team which then makes all of them increase their revenue, which hits their target, which increases their share price. So all of these outcomes, as a result of the thing that you did, are really important to capture. And that outcome has to play some sort of role, I think, in the price that you come up with.

Jen: Yes. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said. And one of the reasons why I'm laughing right now and shaking my head is because I realized that it sounded so good to say thirty minutes/thirty years, but that I really aged myself up by a solid near five to ten years by allowing that balance to be spoken. So yeah, I'm dealing with that right now.

Pete: It was a good alliteration though. Alliteration, it was very nice.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, I want to thank you and Priya Parker and Brené Brown (shout out Brené) for this aha moment. Because I think it's going to actually be very useful to me in the immediate future as I'm looking at my own pricing, helping my clients with negotiating their pricing. You know, my acting clients, but I also coach a ton of entrepreneurs and small business owners who I think will benefit greatly from this episode.

Pete: Yeah, I tend to agree. This aha moment has been rattling around in my noggin for a few weeks now. And I think it overlaps with a book that I read recently, which the book is Effortless by Greg McKeown (who also wrote Essentialism). And the whole book is kind of centered around this idea that we tell ourselves a story that the things that are essential to us (which was his first book) require a lot of effort. And so, what if it didn't? What if we asked ourselves the question: What would this look like if it were easy? That's kind of what the entire book is about. (And I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies.) But I just feel like that question combined with the Priya Parker and the Brené Brown aha moment of...what is it that I find easy? What would it look like if this were easy? What is that gift that I then have? And then how might I think about pricing that, charging for that, doubling down on thatnd, and leaning into that a little bit more?

Jen: I really appreciate the series of questions. Because you know, I am a Questioner. So, I enjoy a list of questions to work with. A slight variation that came to me as you were saying, "What would this look like if this were easy," is knowing (like in the Priya Parker situation) that that thing is easy, to ask, "Why does this look like it is easy?" And then, you can go through, "Well, it looks like it's easy because I've done this four thousand times."

Pete: Right.

Jen: Or, "I've trained in this particular technique for twenty-five years." Or, "I've read one thousand books on the topic. That's why it looks like it's easy."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Which reminds me of a question, as we get to closing this episode, that we've asked in the Big Ideas Lab a number of times of the people that we're working with on their talks, or their workshops, which is, "Why are you uniquely qualified to deliver this talk or to spread this message?" I think that's another question that's worth noodling on, for all the listeners out there.

Jen: Wow. This episode is going to keep me up at night for many nights. So, thanks so much for that. I'm looking forward to getting real with myself and with my clients about pricing appropriately for the things that are easy.

Pete: Thank you, Priya. And thank you, Brené. That is The Long and The Short Of It.