The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 162 - Imperfection

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey there, Peter.

Pete: You know when you hear someone share something imperfect about themselves, and you immediately feel closer to them? Have you ever had that experience?

Jen: Why yes, I have.

Pete: So I feel like many, many, many of our listeners will have also had this experience. And I heard it summarized really beautifully recently, and I feel like it's worth sharing, maybe us unpacking. And that is that: It is our imperfections that connect us.

Jen: Could not agree more. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So I actually hesitated into whether this is an episode because I feel like the story I'm telling myself is that for many people, this will be obvious. And I feel like, I'm sure...I'm sure Brene Brown has said this, or written this, or talked about this in some capacity. But I guess the meta learning or the meta idea, even, in the way I'm teeing this up is, you know how you need to hear things multiple times from different people until it really truly resonates?

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: I heard this line from this guy called Ben Crowe, who is a high-performance coach here in Australia. He is the coach/mentor of Ash Barty (who was the world number one tennis player, who is Australian) and many, many other very, very successful Australian sports stars. He's kind of the guy in the background that no one knew was in the background. And he's more recently become quite public, and he does keynotes and he's got this amazing course. And anyway, I took his online course. And in one of the little videos I watched, he said, "It is our imperfections that connect us." And I was just like, "Oh, wow. That is so true on so many levels." And I have so many examples of how this is true. But before we dive in, I just wanted to like share the context, get your reaction. What does it make you think about when you hear this idea that imperfections are what connects us?

Jen: I mean, working in an industry that is so perfectionistic, I feel like this is something I am constantly having to remind myself and all of my clients. So, that's the first thing that came up. But the second, which is actually making me laugh, is how...you know, I work in live theatre. And everybody loves it, including the people on stage (unless someone gets injured), when something goes wrong. Like, we love it when it's imperfect. And then, we love to tell the stories for years to come. "I was there on the night that such and such happened. You know, when Elphaba didn't fly. Or when, you know, the shoe flew into the audience and hit that guy in the face," or whatever it was. Like, people love those moments, and it brings us together. So yes, imperfection creates connection.

Pete: Hmm. And I guess the flip side, I wonder too, is whether perfectionism creates disconnection or divide? I don't know.

Jen: Yes. I would say yes. You have landed on something very important there, Peter Shepherd.

Pete: Mmm. Which...so, I feel like so many directions. One of which is, I think this is a lot of the reason (I'll just speak for myself) I personally struggle with something like social media. Is, it encourages one to present, I think, themselves in a certain way. We are encouraged to present ourselves in a certain way, i.e. in a perfect way, because of the things that are pushed to us. So I think that's just one thing worth noting, is that I don't feel connected to people through social media. And I think part of the reason is there's no humanity or imperfections often, through those mediums, because of the way that they're structured and the incentives behind what gets promoted and all that. Anyway.

Jen: And the filters.

Pete: And the filters. Where I've really seen these crystallized is in the last six months, twelve months (probably twelve months), I have become obsessed with the Armchair Expert podcast, which is by Dax Shepard and Monica Padman. The story with their podcast goes that...I think it's only two or three years old. But it basically went from, "Let's start this podcast," to like one of the most downloaded popular podcasts on the planet in extremely quick fashion. And there's a few episodes where they try and like even unpack how that happened and why that happened, because they're like, "We don't really know. We just showed up, and did a podcast, and interviewed people." But I actually think this idea, imperfections are the things that connects us, is the reason for why this podcast is so popular. Because I've never heard a host, or the way that he gets guests to be as honest and as imperfect as the way that Dax and Monica both show up in this podcast. I mean, there's literally stories of their most spectacular failures, their most spectacular embarrassing moments that may have happened the day before. And they are high-profile folks with big platforms that, in theory, "have a lot to lose." And I put that in air quotes, because I know that that's like sort of a story that people can tell themselves about why they can't be vulnerable or imperfect. And it just bucks all of those trends, and I think that's why we love it. Certainly, that's why I love it.

Jen: This just made me think of something you say, and you might have even have said it in your TEDx talk about imposters and imposter syndrome, and you use these examples. You're like, "Michelle Obama said that she feels like an imposter. And Seth Godin says he feels like an imposter." And that imperfection is something we can all relate to. It seems to me that the revelation of one's imperfections...or maybe it's not as aggressive as, "I reveal my imperfections to you," but just like the not hiding of one's imperfections might actually be an empathy tool.

Pete: Ooh. Could you say more?

Jen: Well, it's like, I'm imperfect too, so I feel like it's relatable when someone shares that they are imperfect, and I can empathize with that feeling. I cannot empathize with perfect, but I can empathize with imperfect. It actually is making me laugh so hard. My daughter, Cate, she's almost twelve. But a couple years ago...she's very, very wise and she will call out things when she sees them, exactly as she sees them. It was New Year's Eve and Celine Dion was performing, and she was wearing this spectacular gown and singing a song called I've Got My Own Imperfections. [singing] "I've got my own imperfections." And Cate literally screams at the television, "No, you don't." And to me, that sums this whole thing up. It's like, no, you're not sharing your imperfections, and so you are not relatable and don't even pretend that you are relatable. Stop it.

Pete: That's so funny. Yeah, I totally think you're right. I feel like the way that this can build empathy is that it makes others realize they're not alone, or other people experience the insecurities, the fears, the doubts, the imposter moments, which just makes them kind of just breathe a sigh of relief. Like, "Oh, I guess I'm not uniquely flawed. I can relate to also feeling like a bit of a fraud every single day. I can relate to, you know, if I tell an embarrassing story about how I, I don't know, wanted to be a football player growing up, and you put a photo of me with no shorts on in the Box O' Goodies where it looked like I was trying to be a footy player..." It's like, people can be like, "Oh, I relate to having a silly childhood dream like that." So yeah, I think you're right. It builds empathy, as well as creating connection. Which, as I say that, feels, again, like an obvious statement. Because I actually think the thing that empathy does better than anything else is creates connection and understanding.

Jen: I remember us, at one point, talking about perfectionism. And we did an episode once called Perfectionism, where we asserted that perfectionism is a form of hiding. And when you think about it from that angle, of course it doesn't create connection. How can you connect with someone when you're hiding from them?

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder...I actually, I just was sharing this with a client earlier today, brilliant, brilliant human being. And he was actually also saying, "Oh, but the perfectionism struggle that I have. I'm a recovering perfectionist." And I actually wondered whether...I don't know if this is too meta or whether this actually makes sense, but let me try. I actually wonder whether admitting that you're a recovering perfectionist and that you struggle with the tension of getting work done versus being a perfectionist is, in fact, you sharing your imperfection.

Jen: Mmm. I think that is brilliant. It's very different than saying, "I'm a perfectionist." "I'm struggling with perfectionism," is very different than, "I am a perfectionist." One is like, "I call you in." The other is, "I push you out."

Pete: Yeah. Yes. Yes, you're right. So this makes me think of something else that we talked about for about three seconds before we started recording, maybe it was thirteen seconds. Which is, sometimes when I hear back episodes of our podcast, I think to myself, "You sound like you've got podcast voice, Pete."

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And I wonder if there's a rhyme here with when I tell myself I have podcast voice versus, "Oh, you sound like Pete having a conversation with Jen," is that I am, for whatever reason (and I think there are many, sometimes I'm tired, sometimes we are like in the middle of a big project and so we haven't quite thought through the concept we want to share as much as we would have liked to)...I wonder if part of what makes podcast voice sound like podcast voice is, for some reason, I didn't share the imperfection. I don't know. I don't think I'm presenting as perfect. Maybe I'm trying to connect these two dots that aren't actually there connect. But it just made me think of that.

Jen: Would you remember when Sarah, our amazing editor, first came on to start editing the podcast?

Pete: Mm-hmm.

Jen: I think it was maybe the very first episode she had edited, you and I both listened back and were like, "Something's weird here. Something is very strange." And it turned out, Sarah had done what would I guess be called a "perfect edit". She had taken out a lot of like the weird noises when we're talking to each other, or like when we accidentally speak over each other, or something like that. She had made this super clean edit. And it turned out that the perfect edit was actually quite distancing as a listener. So we went back to her and we were like, "Can you put in some of our mess ups? Like, when we accidentally make these weird sounds?" And then when she did, we were all like, "Oh, yes. Right. That is something you can connect to." It's hard to connect to perfect.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a, then, there's an interesting maybe tension between...because what I imagine one could think hearing this back, is, "Yeah, you have to be authentic."

Jen: Mmm...mmm.

Pete: Yeah. And our most downloaded/controversial/replied to episode of all time was called Authenticity versus Integrity, whereby we try to unpack this Seth Godin idea of, "Is authenticity actually valuable? Is it actually the thing that we should strive for, versus showing up in integrity with ourselves?" I'm paraphrasing, I'll include the actual episode in the Box O' Goodies for those that want to revisit and either love us or hate us. That tends to be the two directions.

Jen: Those are the only two reactions on that one.

Pete: They were the only two reactions. But I wonder if you hear this and go, "Oh, of course, Pete. What you're saying is, 'Show up authentically.'" And I don't actually know if that's what I'm saying.

Jen: Okay, two things immediately came to mind. One is, you know, I listen to Amy Porterfield podcast, Online Marketing Made Easy with Amy Porterfield. And on it, she recently was talking about her philosophy about sharing your imperfections. And I loved this very simple way she describes it, "Share your scars, not your scabs."

Pete: Oh, that's good. Wait, can you say more about what she means by that, or what you interpret that as?

Jen: What she means by that is...and P.S., I'm not saying right now that imperfections have to come in the form of like deep vulnerable shares. So just like, let me just say that up front. What she's basically saying is, if you are someone who struggles with imposter syndrome and it is causing you to not get out of bed, to not function, that's not the time for you to be sharing it because that is a festering pussy scab that is still infected. But when (like you have done), when you have figured out how imposter syndrome is affecting you and you now know that you can work through it, share that. That is something that you have...it might not be completely healed, but it's something that you have strength around. So, that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, we've recently started working with an amazing intimacy director at our studio, and one of the things they said in a recent training with us is about vulnerability. And, you know, in the context of the work I'm doing, what they were saying is, there's a big difference between the actor being vulnerable, meaning like could be hurt (so not in the same context as Brene talks about vulnerability), and the character being vulnerable. And our role is to ask the actors to be courageous so the characters can be vulnerable. And I just loved that so much.

Pete: Mmm. Well, and I think...I actually think the Brene version of vulnerability ties into what you said about Amy Porterfield too, because she would say that vulnerability without boundaries isn't actually vulnerability.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And she goes on to say, the question one might ask themselves when thinking about, "Should I share this imperfection? Or should I share this vulnerability," however you want to frame it, is, "Am I sharing this in the interest of moving this conversation forward? Am I sharing this because I think it might help? Or am I just sorting my shit out?" I think that's what she says. Like, "Am I just," to Amy's point (I love that example), "Am I just sharing a scab? Like, am I just trying to sort my shit out?" Which is not actually vulnerability. There's no boundary. It's not actually productive and helpful. And I think that would be part of the way that I would draw the line between sharing an imperfection. Is it that I'm sharing it to move the conversation forward to help someone else, to try and create empathy and connection, as opposed to just like sharing a scab. The other thing that made me think of as you were sharing, I think you paused and were like...I think you quite rightly call in to this that we're not talking about like, "I have to share my deepest shame."

Jen: No.

Pete: I think about a really great example is the bloopers that we put on Instagram. Like, once a week...we've joked about them being more popular than the podcast, which I don't think it's quite true, but it's pretty close to true. And I think it's because people love just seeing us totally stuff up and be totally imperfect and then have to say, "Sorry, Sarah," and we put those on Instagram as a way to, I don't know, maybe make people laugh and make people hopefully connect with us in some way a little bit deeper, even though I said earlier that it's hard to connect with people through social media. I feel like I might be contradicting myself, but yeah.

Jen: Well, you know, the person who does my social media, the amazing Christy Coco...shout out, Coco.

Pete: Amazing.

Jen: She always tells me, when I'm like, "Okay, I want to do this social campaign. So let me hire the photographer and we'll, you know, I'll get my hair done the day before and we'll do the thing." And she's like, "Jen, people just like it when you take a selfie. Like, you get more engagement from your selfies than you get from any studio photo session. So, just take a selfie and call it a day." It's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah. Right, because one is striving for perfection and the other is just living in the imperfection." The other thing is, Pete, we've been kind of circling around the idea of storytelling with imperfection. The other thing is, you can just model it. You can just model living imperfectly. You know, one of the quickest ways, I think, to erode trust is for someone to ask you a question that you don't know the answer to, and you give an answer. And, of course, I've learned this the hard way. And one of the quickest ways to build trust is to live with your imperfect knowledge. And if someone asks you a question (and I'm speaking specifically as an educator right now) that you don't know the answer to and you say, "I don't know the answer to that," they trust you. You can't trust someone who says they know everything.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: That perfect knowledge is completely impossible. So, it's not trustworthy.

Pete: Yeah, what a great question. "Let me get back to you on that," is such a powerful way to respond. Yeah. Mmm. So I guess what, I mean, what I'm taking from this, I feel like this was almost me putting myself on the hook to you and to our listeners to say, "I'm exploring and curious about how I might show up more imperfectly in a way that is productive, to create more connection with you and with our listeners, and with the work that I'm doing."

Jen: As a person who feels very strongly about adopting a growth mindset, it just occurred to me that perfectionism is a fixed mindset. When you strive for perfect, you make a commitment that there's nowhere farther to go. And so my hope for you, and my hope for me, and my hope for all of our listeners is that we remain imperfect, so that we can constantly be in a state of growth.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.