The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 172 - Teachers Teaching Teachers

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I had the most amazing experience today, which I will happily tell you about. But there was a big takeaway from this amazing experience that I want to unpack with you, which I'm still trying to even like ground myself in, what is the truth of my learning here? But it is essentially that teachers teach their teachers.

Pete: Oh my gosh, I'm already obsessed with this. Teachers teach their teachers. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, here's what happened. When I was a young person, a highschool-aged person...I am now forty-six, so you do the math, friends. When I was a highschool-age person, I started singing. I started taking voice lessons when I was fourteen. And my voice teacher invited a professional musician to accompany her voice studio's recital. This was a friend of hers. I don't know why he said yes. We were a bunch of high schoolers who could barely sing, but he said yes. And his name was Joey Singer, and when we met, I felt like a professional. I felt I was being taken seriously as a singer. And he really...and I've never said this to him. He told me he listens to the podcast, so I hope he's listening. He made me feel like it was possible to be a professional singer. And for several years, you know, when I was in high school and then when I was in college, he collaborated with me multiple times on different projects I was working on. And even, at one point when I was twenty years old, invited me to the hotel in Vegas where he was the music director, and invited me to sing, like a professional person would do. And at that time, I had already now set my sights on like, "I'm going to do this for my life." Anyway, he was just like such a meaningful mentor. And I think I learned so much about musicianship, and how to find maturity in song interpretation from him. And I hadn't seen him in two decades. Two decades.

Pete: Twenty years.

Jen: So, yes. So he happened to be in New York City, playing Carnegie Hall this week...as you do when you are as amazingly talented as Joey Singer is.

Pete: Very casual.

Jen: And he texted me to say he was going to be in town. And we realized our schedules weren't going to overlap at all, and I was so bummed because I wasn't going to get to see him and I hadn't seen him in two decades. Well, I finished my morning class, and I walked out of the studio today, and there he was in my studio.

Pete: Woah. Woah.

Jen: He was like, "I couldn't be in New York and not see you." So the amazing experience was, I entered a state of ecstasy and euphoria that...I honestly, Pete, I can't even tell you how long it's been (because, you know, pandemic) that I've felt an emotional spike of that much positivity like coursing through my veins. So that's the amazing experience, but here is the learning part.

Pete: Okay, okay, okay.

Jen: He said, "You know, I struggle with a lot of the things you and Pete talk about on your episodes. As a creative person, I'm constantly battling imposter syndrome, and working through the fear, and needing to set some meaningful goals for myself, and realigning with my purpose." And he said, "I've been taking walks and listening to The Long and The Short Of It, because you help me." And I could have fainted. Because the thought that I would be helping a person who I feel (I mean, I'm getting choked up), a person who I feel is in so many ways responsible for giving me my voice. The fact that I would be helping him is just insane. So, you know, I'm a teacher now and he was my teacher, so that's how I came up with that clever, "Teachers teach their teachers," but I'm not sure if that's even the point. So help me, Pete. What do you make of this crazy euphoria that resulted in me wanting to faint on the floor?

Pete: I have so many threads. So, listeners can't see this...I am currently sitting behind or in front of a whiteboard. And as you've been talking, I'm like furiously whiteboarding and scribbling things down, because I feel like there's so many different threads I want to pull. I guess the first one (just working back), I love that Joey shared with you and you feel comfortable sharing that he's human. You know?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That this is someone who...as you have, you know, idolized or looked up to or respected for so long, and I'm sure clearly many, many other people do if he's playing at Carnegie Hall...someone who is at the top of his game, in the top 1% of his field. And it doesn't matter what field you're in, I think this is such a perfect example of how even those geniuses feel scared, feel doubt, feel like an imposter, want to give up, need reassurance, seek to unpack things in podcasts like ours. Like I just find that, you know, as a creative listening to you share that, I feel relieved in hearing you pass that on. Because in my experience, what we tend to do is think that we're the only ones that feel that way. And/or, we think, "If I could only just get the Carnegie Hall set, then I'll no longer feel like an imposter."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And it's just not true. It's not true. It doesn't matter if you want to be a CEO, and then you think when you get to CEO you won't feel like an imposter. It's not true. All of these fears, all these doubts, all these insecurities will forever be something we're dancing with, I think. So I just I want to reflect that back, because I find that super helpful and I think a lot of our listeners will. The other thing I just think is so rich in what you shared about teachers (in particular, what made a great teacher), is how you felt like a professional. And this is just, ah, so rich. And I think you could probably replace the word "teacher" with "leader," with "coach," with "friend," with "partner." Is, can I make someone feel seen, and feel heard, and feel like they belong? Can I make someone realize that they're probably capable of more than they realize that they're capable of?

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: That that is a goal of, I think, or the responsibility of a great teacher. Or the potential impact that a great teacher can have is to see someone, hear someone, understand where they're at in their journey through empathy, and then help them see where they might get to. Which he did beautifully with you, and look at you now. And look at you now. I have other thoughts too, but maybe I'll just pause there after those two. Am I making sense?

Jen: Absolutely. So, there was a very meta thing that happened today. I don't talk about this very much on the podcast, but I have a feeling it's going to start showing up in 2022 some more, so might as well. I haven't really been singing in any sort of regular way for the last like truly decade, I guess. You know, I retired from acting in 2006/2007, and it's 2022, so it's been a while since I've had a regular singing practice. And the other day, I decided to just turn on some old Sondheim tunes and sing in my house. And I was like simultaneously full of joy and horrified, because I was like, "Oh my god. Like, I trained my whole life to be a singer, and then I let it all go. And it just sounds so bad." And like, I'm just like, "What have I done to my voice?" So I made this decision that I would start taking voice lessons again this year.

Pete: Yes!

Jen: Yes. So while Joey was at the studio, I said to him, "Well, I just bought this new piano. Would you please play it, so I could have some of your energy in my piano?" And he was like, "Sure. Will you sing?" And I said, "No. Absolutely not. I'm not going to sing." So he sat down and started to play One For My Baby, the Frank Sinatra tune.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: Which, when he plays, it's like you can hear an entire orchestra. But in any case, my...I've mentioned him many times on the podcast, my music director and one of my best friends, Drew Wutke, was in the room, and I saw him standing there. This thing flashed in my head that I heard him say once (which was him quoting a TV show), "I'm allowing myself two regrets in this lifetime, and this will not be one of them." So, I just started to sing. And the whole time, I was fighting imposter syndrome, and I was like, "This is not the voice that I want to have right now. And should I stop singing? And this is Joey Singer. And like, this is what I sound like." But at the end, he looked at me with so much magic in his eyes, and I was like, "Ah, I'm so glad I did not allow my imposter to win that moment, that I gave myself that moment." But ooh, I was about to let it pass me by, if I'm being totally honest. Like, I was ready to stay silent.

Pete: Mmm. But you danced. I love that. And you sang.

Jen: It's almost like I, you know, am a Broadway person. I danced and I sang.

Pete: I know it. You danced and you sang, yeah. (There's Pete, over-simplifying it.) The other thing you reminded me of when you started this episode by saying, "Teachers teach teachers,"...is that what you said?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "Teachers are teaching teachers." Is actually, I think the most profound way of thinking about teaching, or I think of it in the context of leadership, and that is that great leaders create other leaders.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Great leaders don't create followers, they create more leaders. They essentially make themselves redundant, or peers with the people that they're leading, if that makes sense. And I think the same is true in what you described with teaching. Is, a great teacher creates, hopefully, more teachers that they can then learn from, which is exactly what happened with Joey. That's just, I think, really poetic.

Jen: I think that's such an important insight. Because, you know, I'm still sort of reeling from the whole experience, and shocked that Joey would be listening to our podcast and learning from it. But of course, I mean, the irony is so thick and amazing. I'm teaching him, via the podcast, what he already taught me.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I'm just giving it right back to him. It's like around and around and around in the circle game, right?

Pete: So true, and so good. Because it's like, it's incredibly hard to teach yourself. We've talked about a few times how it's very hard to give yourself the feedback or listen to the feedback you're giving others, even though it's probably the feedback you need to hear the most. Like if I'm coaching an executive or a client or a leader and we're talking about them navigating feeling like an imposter as a new CEO of this big company, in me coaching them, I'm thinking to myself, "Hmm. Yeah, I feel like a bit of an imposter coaching this CEO. I should probably be listening to exactly what I'm telling the CEO to be doing." It's like it's this crazy loop where we're all learning from one another, which I think is great.

Jen: It really is. Wow. I'm like, I'm so emotional and sentimental from this experience. You know, just one more little like side story. When I was twenty years old, I was cast to play Molly Brown in a production of The Unsinkable Molly Brown, which famously in the film version was played by Debbie Reynolds. And at the time, Joey was Debbie Reynolds' music director in Las Vegas. And on my opening night at the theater, I received a huge bouquet of red roses and a box, and inside the box was a framed photo of Debbie Reynolds that she signed. So she sent the flowers, and it said, "From one Molly to another, Debbie Reynolds.”

Pete: Wow.

Jen: And that is like...I bet he doesn't even remember he did that for me. But I felt like star. I felt like I had really made it. "I am playing the title role. And here is someone who famously played it, telling me that I am like her." From one Molly to another." I mean, what an inscription.

Pete: Ah, okay. I am obsessed with that example, that again, I think, displays what a great teacher can do, but really what a great human can do.

Jen: Right?

Pete: And what, in fact, is a choice, which is the ability to see other people, to hear what they're saying, or what they're valuing, or what they're scared of, or what might be missing that they need (i.e. some confidence or some technique), whatever it is, as a teacher, and then meeting them there. This like empathetic lens of looking at teaching, or looking at leadership, or looking at coaching, or looking at life, I think is a choice. And I hear that story, and I hope our listeners hear that story and think, "Huh. Who could I be that person for, today or in the next week?"

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: It doesn't have to be that you're a teacher, or you're a leader, or you're a client, or you're responsible for someone. It could be to a friend.

Jen: Right.

Pete: I don't know, it feels like an amazing, rich reminder to lead with empathy, and that that is a choice that we all have.

Jen: Mmm. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Wow. What a day.

Pete: So I know you're still processing, but what do you make of this euphoric moment, the teaching moment...what do we make of all this?

Jen: Well, just gratitude, first of all. Just gratitude. I had not reflected in quite some time on the early days, and it brought me so much happiness. But the other thing is like, oh my gosh, how did we let more than twenty years go by? And then at the same time, it felt like twenty minutes. I guess the big takeaway is...there's that famous quote, I believe it's Maya Angelou. "People might not remember what you said. But people will remember the way you made them feel." And it was the feeling of being seen, and valued, and someone seeing potential in me that I really believe set me on my career path. So I've got to take that and ensure that every artist I am coming into contact with (every human, but my artists in particular) like the people I surround myself with every day, that I am paying attention to the fact that they will remember how I made them feel, and that might set them on an entirely new path.

Pete: And I will just add to that: WWJD. Which is going to be the acronym I remember moving forward, which is, "What would Joey do?"

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.