Episode 173 - Who Not How
Transcript:
Pete: Hello, Jennifer.
Jen: Hello, Pete.
Pete: So, I've been called out.
Jen: Who called you out this time?
Pete: I just wanted to get it out there straight away, let's just cover that. Who called me out is a great question, actually. "Who called me out," not "How I got called out," because what/who called me out is Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy, who wrote/ co-wrote a book called Who Not How.
Jen: It's so good.
Pete: And I know you just read it, and it was recommended to both of us by our friend Kirsty Stark, who also read it and had her mind blown. And I think we need to unpack it, for my own benefit, probably for your own benefit, but for our listeners benefit. I'm finding it quite a kick in the teeth, in a good way. So, shall we metaphorically kick our listeners in the teeth?
Jen: Get ready, listeners. This is The Long and The Short Of It.
Pete: I've got to work on my metaphors and my analogies...that's not the visual you want. "Alright, Pete, kick me in the teeth." So okay, the book, Who Not How. It's one of those books, I guess a little bit like Start With Why, where I feel like you could explain it on the back of a napkin...
Jen: Yes.
Pete: ...and go, "Okay, you now understand the premise of the book."
Jen: Exactly.
Pete: And in reading it, it's really helpful to go a little bit deeper in a few of the stories and the concepts and the ideas, so I encourage our listeners to read it. However, the back of the napkin is: The trap that a lot of us get stuck in (and I use myself, definitely, as a shining example of this) is when we don't understand how to do something, when we're trying to level up our business or grow as a leader or figure something out so that we can move a project forward, often the default question we ask is, "How do I do that? How do I learn about accounting so that I can get my books in order for my business? How do I edit a podcast so that when we record a podcast, I know how to edit it?" And instead, what this book suggests is, firstly, that's the wrong question. Instead, we should be asking, "Who can help me achieve this?" And that unlocks all sorts of possibilities, because you are empowering others to help you and expand your vision. You are not taking time to learn all of these things that you don't necessarily need to know how to learn. And most likely, hopefully, you're collaborating with people who are far better and far more knowledgeable and are far more well-versed at executing that particular thing. So the idea is, instead of asking, "How do I do this," ask, "Who can help me achieve this?" And I'm finding it to be annoyingly helpful. Did I summarize it well, do you think?
Jen: Yeah. I mean, I felt my shoulders relax when I read, "No, instead of asking, 'How do I do this,' ask, ‘Who can help me with this?’” It's just, it's such a relief to have that shift. And it can work even on like the very macro level. For example, my husband was taking down our Christmas tree last week, and he was texting me about how hard it was to reach the top. And I was like, "I can help you with that. Wait until I get home." Like, we do have this sort of deeply held belief that it doesn't count if we didn't do it by ourselves.
Pete: Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. If there wasn't a bunch of effort, and learning, and figuring out, and tripping over and tangling ourselves in the Christmas lights, then it's like we didn't do it.
Jen: That's right. That's right.
Pete: One of the things I really liked about it is, I think in the past I've thought about or had tension with...and I know that our friend Kirsty was kind of, we were lamenting this together. It feels complicated and hard and time consuming to perhaps "outsource" something that we would normally do to someone else, because, "Oh, I've got to train them how to do it. And I've got to basically replicate myself and like insert that into someone else." And that feels like, "Oh my gosh, that's a lot of effort." But what this idea, this reframe to me suggests, what I took from it is actually, it's not outsourcing yourself, it's collaborating or partnering with others, and defining what success looks like and then letting them figure out, like empowering them to follow the process that they want to follow. And you know, I joked about the podcast example, editing a podcast. Like I see my journey, or our journey in this podcast when I was reading this book. It started with, "Pete needs to figure out how to edit a podcast. How do I do this?" And I learned it, and I spent like, gosh, way too many hours figuring it out, because I didn't ask, "Who?" And then I guess a bunch of episodes in, you kind of nudged me to think about, "Maybe free yourself up, and we could bring someone else in who knows how to do this."
Jen: Yeah. You were my Who out of the gate, and then Sarah became our Who.
Pete: It's true. And so Sarah, the incredible Sarah, our editor, became our Who. And what happened was, it was like, "This is...you know what the episodes sound like at the end. We have a twenty-minute constraint usually. And so, however you want to get there, you get there. We'll send you the files, and it's over to you." And she has done an incredible job at being a Who for us.
Jen: Yeah.
Pete: And so yeah, I guess it's like, where else are there examples of where we're holding ourselves back, or where we're wasting time doing things that we don't necessarily need to? So have you like come up with or discovered any examples since reading?
Jen: Well, I was reading this at the same time that I was reading The Extended Mind. And it's interesting the rhyme there, because there's a whole section in The Extended Mind on teaming successfully, and that working in collaboration with other people is one example of the extended mind. You're not looking to really know what you already know, but you're looking to borrow the knowledge that other people hold, so you have access to so much more information than you would if you had it on your own. But there's this quote right at the beginning of the book, it's like right away, where it says, "What are you trying to accomplish? Do you have Whos in your life that give you perspectives, resources, and ability to go beyond what you could do alone? Or are you keeping your goals so small, to make them easier to accomplish on your own?" And that just felt like, woof. Right. When we say we have to do everything on our own, what we're actually doing is making ourselves smaller, making our goals smaller.
Pete: Yeah, hence why I said I've been called out by this book. Yeah.
Jen: There is something in this book that sort of reminds me of...what is the group of superheroes that you talk about? The Avengers?
Pete: The Avengers? The X-Men?
Jen: Yeah. Maybe it's X-Men. You talk about a group of superheroes who each possesses their own unique power, and it is the combination of those superpowers that like really make the group function. There's something in this book...I'm looking for it right now. I just don't want to misquote it. Oh, yes, here it is on page 165. "Delegate everything except genius."
Pete: Mmm. Oof. Wow.
Jen: Yeah, definitely circled that a couple times. Because it's like, "Oh, right. There is something that only I can contribute, and that is the piece I should be focusing on." And whoever the other Whos are, they'll be contributing the piece only they could contribute.
Pete: Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. I've talked about that, you're right, in terms of...I mean, I've spoken to executive teams and leadership teams about that, as a metaphor for how to think about working together as a team. Is, you know, you don't need to be the super detail-orientated, Excel spreadsheet expert if the other person on the exec team already has that superpower covered. So you don't all have to try and replicate one another, you have to (I love that idea) instead, make space for your genius.
Jen: Yeah.
Pete: And let others bring their genius to the collective. Hmm. Oh, that's good.
Jen: One of the things that this is making me think of, and I have to go in and see exactly how he phrases the question, "Who can help me achieve this?"
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: "Who can help me achieve this?" It requires a bit of like getting over yourself.
Pete: Yeah. Humility, for sure.
Jen: Yes, in multiple ways. Because in some cases, the person who could help you achieve this might be someone who's already in your circle. But in some cases, the person who could help you achieve this is someone you haven't yet had any sort of official interaction with. And you've got to get over the fear of connecting to new people in order to make some of your dreams come true. And, you know, it's that FOPO (fear of people's opinions) that keeps us from reaching out to each other. But within the lens of this book, it sort of demonstrates how powerful reaching out to someone could be for both of you, not just for you.
Pete: Yeah. I think that line around "for both of you" is really important. Because it's easy to look at outsourcing or partnering or who not how through the lens of, "How will this benefit me?" But actually, it's, "How is it going to benefit the other person?" It's, if their genius is editing podcasts and you have an opportunity to help them execute on that genius, then it's benefiting them, not just benefiting you. And I think we get into a lot of trouble when we look at it just through the lens of, "How will this benefit me?" (I'm saying that to myself, listener.)
Jen: Absolutely. It goes to the Adam Grant giver/taker mentality. How can you show up and be a giver, rather than showing up to be a taker? That collaboration isn't about taking, collaboration is about giving.
Pete: Yeah. And so, I'm sort of obsessed with what you said. And like, two things. One is, I think the question that listener, Pete, everyone that read this book or reads this book should get clear on is, "What's my genius?" Because the humility part, or the inability to put our ego to the side for a second, I think comes from the fear of not being able to add value-
Jen: Right.
Pete: -and so, being found out to be a fraud, being found out to be unqualified or unskilled at anything. And so, in order to avoid that fear, what I've done in the past is hold on to everything. So I'll record the podcast, and I'll edit the podcast, and I'll put it on iTunes, and I'll do the social media stuff, and then I'll promote it on LinkedIn. Like, I'll do it all because then I'm in some weird way justifying my existence and my value that I'm bringing to this collaboration, you and I. Versus the question, "What's my genius?" Well, in this context, it's recording the episodes with Jen. Like, that's the bit we don't find a Who for because that's the bit that you and I do. And then everything else that wraps around that, it's not making me less than to find a Who that can help us with that. It's, to your other point earlier, it's how we think bigger, not smaller. So, I don't know, I just think that the reason we often hoard tasks (again, I'm just speaking to myself here I feel like, but I'm sure this is relevant) is because we're fearful that if we don't, we won't be valued and, to your point around FOPO, other people will judge us accordingly. So I think that question, "Where's my genius? Or what's my genius," is super important.
Jen: Ooh. Yeah, this is really lighting me up. Because P.S., I recently revised my Why statement.
Pete: Oh, hello.
Jen: Which is now reading as, "To help us know ourselves better, so that we can unleash the creative genius."
Pete: Oof, love that.
Jen: So, "genius" is just a word I'm jamming on these days. But the other thing it makes me think of is to be an attractive collaborator to someone else, you've got to be able to recognize your own genius, and make room for someone else's genius. It's not attractive to be invited to collaborate with a person who's going to demand that they do everything, and then you sort of sit on the sidelines and watch.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: So that self-awareness to be able to understand what value you bring, opens up the possibility of attracting the right collaborators. But there is the challenge of we're not great at seeing what we're great at, because it doesn't seem that special to us.
Pete: Totally.
Jen: So this makes me want to remind people about an exercise we've talked about so many times, the Reflected Best Self Exercise (I'll drop it in the Box O' Goodies) where you enquire with people with whom you have worked about the ways that your contribution made a difference in whatever the project or relationship was, because you'll get some answers that really blow your mind that like you didn't expect.
Pete: Yeah. Or you'll get some answers that are like, "Wait, doesn't everybody do that? Isn't that everybody's superpower?" And the answer is no. I think the other trap I see myself fall into, in just following this thread, is, "Oh, but I'm good at that thing."
Jen: Mmm.
Pete: So I wonder, like this word "genius", maybe there's even another qualifying word, which is like, "My unique genius," or, "What is my unique contribution that I can make to this?" Because I could listen back to some of the episodes that I edited, for example, and go "Oh, but I actually got quite good at editing. So, why should I find a Who when I'm actually quite good at it?" And I think the point is, one of the things I took away from the book is just because you're good at something doesn't mean you should do it.
Jen: Yeah.
Pete: And that, in terms of humility, like that is a really important dance to do from a humility perspective.
Jen: So, I want to jump over to this other section of the book,-
Pete: Please.
Jen: -but one that like really rattled me. So, there's a section called Time Creates Money...and I'm sure I've shared this at some point on the podcast. For the first however many years of my business, I did everything by myself because I convinced myself that I couldn't afford an assistant. And then of course, when I finally hired my first assistant, Kelly (hi, Kelly), she freed up so much time for me that she ended up paying for herself, because I had all this other time to be devoted to things that would generate income. There is a line in this book, on page...I can't even read it, it's so painful...on page 81. "Money avoids the person who doesn't value their time."
Pete: Ooh. Ouch.
Jen: Oof. Ouch.
Pete: Yeah. There's that kick in the teeth again.
Jen: Ouch. "Only those who improve their time, value it, and use it more effectively experience money freedom. Once you add Whos to handle your Hows, then your time will be best spent on those things that make the biggest impact."
Pete: Goddamnit, my teeth have been truly kicked at this point.
Jen: Woof.
Pete: Yeah. I mean, we've talked about the stories that money creates, or the fact that money is a story and how complicated that gets from each individual's perspective but also as a business owner. It's funny, one of the things I'd written down actually, building on that point I think, was because you mentioned your assistant paid for herself. But actually, one of the things I wrote down is, that the goal isn't to get your money back in using other Whos and bringing other people into your work. It's to 10x or 100x the investment.
Jen: Yeah.
Pete: So that might be measured in the amount of time that you're freed up to create new programs, for example. That might be like...there's all sorts of different ways to measure it. But like, it's even small to think, "Oh, how do I make sure that the cost of paying for someone to help me with this is recuperated?" It's actually, "How do I leverage that to 10x the amount of impact, revenue, change, whatever, I can bring in?"
Jen: Right. So true.
Pete: Yeah, that's been a big shift for me. So, I feel like so...listener, I have my hands on my head and I'm sweating. Because I think there's a, I don't know, I think for all of us as an interesting learning/lesson here...it's funny, because before I picked this book up, I thought, "I do a pretty good job at collaborating with others, and bringing in Sarah to do the podcast editing." But then things like what you just said, and examples started coming to my mind where you are that every single piece of the project including the project manager, when you could bring in someone to help you in all sorts of different ways. So anyway, I just...another episode that feels like therapy for Pete, I guess.
Jen: This is making me want to revisit, for a second, our 2022 themes for the year. Because I do think that reading this book somehow informed the theme I landed on, and I wonder if it might have informed your theme too. That, for those of you who didn't listen (spoiler alert), my theme for the year is, "Catch the dots." And Pete, I think you've recently revised yours since that episode.
Pete: Yeah. So I think in the episode, I talked about "intentionally bold" or "intentionally audacious", and I've since changed it to "intentionally abundant" or "abundantly intentional".
Jen: Okay, so I can see how adding Whos to your life would be in an effort to create intentional abundance, or be abundantly intentional.
Pete: Yeah.
Jen: And in my situation, catching the dots means opening myself up to Whos that I didn't previously know about, think about, or consider.
Pete: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it's a surprise that I read this book towards the end of the year, and that shaped the words.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Pete: Definitely "intentional", like in order to bring other people in, in order to collaborate, there's still the intentional requirement to say, "Hey, collaborator. This is what success looks like. Can you help me execute on that? I don't care how, that's your responsibility. That's your freedom, creative expression. But this is what we want to get out of it," which I think is the intentional part, and then letting them go. Which (shocker, Jen), this is leadership. This is what great leaders do.
Jen: Exactly. I was just thinking about how in Dare to Lead, Brene Brown talks about this concept using the phrase, "Paint done."
Pete: Mmm.
Jen: Where you say to someone, a Who, "This is what I think done looks like. However you get there, that's your genius. That's your part to own."
Pete: Yeah. And it's wild because over the last four years, I've led a team in the, you know, altMBA, which I've done for, yeah, I did for four years. And the way that I approached that as a leader, the way that we all approached that as head coaches was basically, "This is what the output of the program looks like. Go. How can I help?" And so it's funny, because I feel like...and the podcast example is a good one. Even when you get good at doing it in certain parts of your life, there are always these little blind spots and other ways that you can kick yourself in the teeth.
Jen: So as we're bringing this to a close, I feel like the best way to sum it up is to go back to the napkin-sized, bite-sized version of this. When you hear yourself say, "How am I going to do this," catch it, reframe it, and instead ask yourself, "Who could help me achieve this?"
Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.