The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 175 - Mood Follows Action

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So as we start many of these podcasts, I was listening to another podcast the other day and the guest said something in passing that really caught my attention. And I did the whole, "I need to rewind. I need to re-listen to that." I then Googled the words, and read a blog post about these three words, and went down the rabbit hole of this idea that I think is so rich. I think we've talked about it in different forms, but I've never quite heard it articulated like that. And the way that it was articulated was, "Mood follows action."

Jen: Ooh. Yep. Mood follows action. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So the episode in question was an episode of the Tim Ferriss show where he interviewed a guy by the name of Rich Roll, who I must admit I hadn't heard that much about but having listened to this podcast, I suspect I'll be hearing a lot more from him. And it was kind of one of those interviews where you go, "Why have I not heard more, or dug more into Rich Roll's content?" So he's an author. He's a podcaster. He has an incredible journey about redemption, having battled addiction his whole life. And he's been named, you know, one of the fittest men in the world at one point, and done these incredible athletic feats. Anyway, so a really fascinating guy with an amazing story. He talked about this idea that mood follows action. And specifically being in a sport context, he's written a few books about ultra-marathon running, I believe. He was talking about how most of the time you don't wake up feeling like going for a run. You start going for your run, halfway through your run or when you finish your run, you go, "Oh, I'm in a much better mood now." Or, "I'm so glad I did that, now." That the mood follows the action of starting the run. And I see so many parallels into so many different topics we've talked about, authors we've spoken about, and just ideas that we've noodled on. So, I thought I might bring it to you and get your thoughts on how this might show up for us. I mean, even as podcasters...I was thinking about this ten minutes ago. You said, "Have you got an idea for a podcast?" And I was like, "I don't know if I want to record one today, Jen, I'm not in the mood." And already, two minutes into this, I'm like, "Oh, that's better. I'm feeling much better about podcasting, because we took action." So, I don't know. I just, I feel like it's quite rich. What do you think?

Jen: I love it. First of all, I find it a very empowering idea. Because I'm not a big fan of theories that just stay theories. I'm a big fan of putting theories into action. So, it already pings off of things that I like. But I find it empowering because it's like, "If you don't like how you're feeling, do something." Not, "Do something about how you're feeling," but just, "Do something and then you'll feel something else." So, I love that. It also reminds me, a psychologist/researcher friend of mine...this is like way too deep a rabbit hole to fall in to, but I'll give you the gist of our conversation. Was, she said to me, "It's not an accident that the main word in "emotion" is "motion".

Pete: Ooh. That's good.

Jen: So, I liked that. And then the third little thing I wanted to throw in there is, if mood follows action, is it also true that mood follows inaction? Meaning, is inaction an active choice? And then, how is your mood impacted by your inactive choice?

Pete: Oh, wow. That's interesting. Yeah, I'm immediately thinking of those times when you find yourself lazily lying on the couch for five minutes too long, and you feel...I feel terrible. Like I feel tired, lethargic, guilty. The mood, because of the inaction, is...huh, yeah, not a positive one. Interesting, interesting. That emotion and motion thing is really interesting. So, where I land with that is that taking motion can change our emotion.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Or being in motion changes our emotions? Huh.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Which is somewhat similar, yeah.

Jen: Well, it is for many reasons, but not the least of which is chemicals are released in your brain when you are in motion. You know, it's that thing that you were talking about, I wake up and I'm like, "God, I don't want to go for a run. That's the last thing I want to do." And then as you're running, chemicals are being released and you feel good.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. And I feel like the running example is such a universally understood example, because I feel like almost anyone listening to this-

Jen: Nobody wants to go for a run.

Pete: Right. Who are you people out there that want to run? So I feel like it's a great entry point to this conversation, because everyone can understand it. And then I've started to think about it a bit more deeply or in a more nuanced way, which is, you know, this idea that Seth Godin has written about, about having a practice. And that part of that is because flow is a symptom, i.e. this flow state that many people have talked about which is that moment where you are losing track of time because you're so engrossed in your task, and you're in flow, and you're super inspired, and you're writing or you're singing or you're podcasting or you're doing your project, whatever that that creative pursuit often is, you find yourself in this flow state. But you don't start in a flow state. That flow state follows the process of you taking action. So, I see it in creative pursuits. And I also see it in myself, certainly historically (but also still, sometimes), in when we look for permission to do something. So when I was in a company and in a certain role, I told myself a story that I needed to get a promotion in order to lead, or get a promotion in order to be able to speak up at the table. I was looking for permission, which was a hiding spot and was what I would consider inaction, to your point. And that presented a certain mood. Some days, I would be completely disengaged. I wouldn't want to show up. And I would point outward and say, "This is because you haven't given me the promotion," or, "I haven't been given the opportunities." Which is, now that I'm hearing this back, is like a really unhealthy mindset, Pete. However, it was...that was true. And so, I just think that this is actually...it's deeper than just going for a run. Because if I take action and choose to lead, then my mood is going to change and correspond with that. If I take action and choose to start a writing practice, then my mood is going to change as a result of that, rather than waiting for permission, waiting for someone to say, "You're an author now," waiting for someone to say, "You're a leader now," and then you start.

Jen: Mmm. That feels like such a rich, rich, rich insight. Especially right now, when there's so much uncertainty, and so many people (at least in the industry that I'm working in) don't really know where they stand and they're afraid to take action because they don't want to rock the boat. They don't even know if they're in the boat. So it feels really important to hear you looking back on that time where you were waiting for permission to speak up, but what you could have done is just speak up.

Pete: Right. Yeah. It goes to, I think, what you just said, being afraid to take action. I'm wondering what might be the fear in that. Like, if we go back to the fear onion...

Jen: Yep. Stinky.

Pete: The stinky fear onion, which is this idea that we've spoken about (I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies, the old episode that we did), where you have various layers of fear. And as you peel them back, what you might discover is there's a fear behind the fear behind the fear. And then at the core of the onion, what we've asserted, often the root fear is this fear of people's opinion, or FOPO. So going back to what you said, being afraid to take action, which then, as it relates to mood, impacts your mood. So like, I wonder if there's some threads there around what that fear might be that stops us from taking action.

Jen: Well, I think you're dead right. It's, "What will people think of me if I do this?"

Pete: Yeah. I don't know if this is an aha moment, but do you think it's also, "What will I think of myself?"

Jen: Ooh, yes. Fear of my own opinion. So not fear of missing out, FOMO. But this is FOMOO, fear of my own opinion. F-O-M-O-O.

Pete: FOMOO. Yeah. FOMOO. Because again, to that universal running example, I feel like it's the fear of my own opinion of me when I run when I don't feel like it. And maybe I don't run as well, maybe I don't get a PB, maybe I feel puffed and unfit and unhappy, and so I fear that opinion of myself and so I just avoid it altogether. I'm speaking directly to myself here, by the way. This is me reflecting on all of my fear examples over the last few years.

Jen: Well, it's also making me want to coin yet another layer of the fear onion: FOTH, fear of the hook. So with the running example, once you start a running practice, you're on the hook to keep running.

Pete: Oh my gosh, I am not okay.

Jen: Okay, can I spin this in a different direction? Well, I guess it's a similar thread, but this idea just came to my mind.

Pete: Please.

Jen: So in the work that I do with actors, one of the booby traps they can fall into when working on a scene is trying to chase the mood, or chase the feeling, or chase the emotion. And when you see an actor trying to chase the mood, you know the scene's not going to go well, because they're trying to determine ahead of time how they're going to feel and that is not really living in the moment, which acting requires. So...I haven't said this in so many years. But I used to say, when I would see someone doing that, you know, "'Mood' is 'doom' spelled backwards."

Pete: Oh, woah.

Jen: "And when you're chasing the mood, you're going to end up in the land of doom. So instead, chase the action. What are you trying to do? What are you trying to do?" Which is like a basic principle in acting, but I'm realizing that this applies completely to everything you're talking about. If you are trying to chase mood, you're going to end up in the doom. So instead, chase the action.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes. I would say, even worse than chasing mood is waiting for mood.

Jen: Oof.

Pete: So-

Jen: Well, you know how I feel about waiting. I'm not a fan.

Pete: She's not a fan, folks. She's not a fan. But waiting for mood is, you know, like, "I'll wait until I'm in the right mood for my run. I won't chase being in the right mood. I won't do something about putting myself in the right mood to go for a run. I'll just sit around and wait." So maybe I originally said, "I'm going to go for a run at 6:00 AM before I start work, and then you're like, "I'm not in the mood, so I'll do it after work," and you wait until you're in that right mood. Shocker, after work comes, you're still not in the right mood and you say, "I'll start again tomorrow. How about I start again tomorrow?"

Jen: Wow. Okay, well, this pings off of...I feel like we've mentioned this episode a lot, recently. This pings off of the Authenticity vs. Integrity episode,-

Pete: Uh-oh. Careful.

Jen: -the most controversial episode of The Long and The Short Of It ever recorded. But what you're talking about is that, it is authentic that you don't feel like going for a run. Like, that feeling is authentic. But turning pro, or showing up in integrity with yourself, or living by your values are the promises you've made to yourself, that is going, "Well, I really don't feel like going for a run but I'm going to do it anyway." And then, the reward on the other side of that is that you feel great.

Pete: Yes, the mood follows. Yeah. Yeah. I'm reminded of that idea that, "Easy choices equals a hard life. Hard choices equals an easy life." Which is-

Jen: Wait, wait, wait, back that up. Say that again.

Pete: It's a grossly oversimplified idea...I think it comes from a Polish power lifter, of all people. And the idea is, easy choices like, "I'm not in the mood, I won't do it," equals a hard life.

Jen: Oh. Okay, so the consequences of making easy choices is that your life gets harder.

Pete: Right. Making hard choices like doing things when you don't want to in integrity with yourself, like you just said, that creates an easy life where you choose to have done the thing prior to even doing it. You know, you've made the hard choice already.

Jen: Oh. Okay. Now I catch what you're throwing. I also am having like a weird deja-vu moment where I feel like you, at some point in the last three years, said those words and I had the exact same reaction, and that you said, "Polish powerlifter". So I'm going to have to review the transcripts, because I feel like we've been here before. That's such a weird feeling.

Pete: Yeah. I feel like I read it-

Jen: Let's do something to get out of this feeling.

Pete: Please. I think it came up in Tools of Titans. It was a Polish powerlifter, and one of the like quotes that they lived their life by was, "Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices, easy life." And I just love that. I mean, the creative idea or the leadership principle of, "Do the hard part first," or even just as a productivity tool...doing the hard part first is such an effective way to create a better mood, but also to, I think, be more effective and efficient. Because usually the hard thing is the thing that we need to be doing, but we're just creating all these little other tasks around it to avoid it and sprinkle them around the difficult thing. So, yeah. Doing the hard part first, I think, is more likely to improve our mood, I guess.

Jen: Okay, I'm about to like flip this on its head, and maybe it's going to get like a little bit darker for a moment.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: But I could also see how someone (like me) might take this to the extreme to avoid feeling the thing that's there. So like, at the beginning of the pandemic, I have never been more active in my life. I was grinding myself into the ground to get away from the thing I was feeling, so I could feel something else after taking the action. So it seems to me then, maybe a healthier recipe would be, "Mood follows action (plus therapy)."

Pete: Or like, "...action plus a pause."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Like it's almost like you need that pause after the action, to then go, "What mood am I in?"

Jen: Yes. Oh my gosh. I was literally writing about this today, Pete. Once upon a time, one of my clients was a puppeteer in the Broadway play War Horse. She manipulated-

Pete: I've seen that play.

Jen: It's amazing. Amazing. Oh my god.

Pete: So cool. It was in Melbourne years ago, my mum and dad took me. It was spectacular.

Jen: I saw it in London. So, she puppeted the back half of the horse. For those of you who don't know, it's a play with horse puppets and other puppets. Anyway, she was a first-time puppeteer, so she was really learning the craft. She had previously been a dancer. She was learning the craft on the job and the puppetmaster, at one point, said to her, "There's too much movement. The only way we'll see the gesture is if there's stillness on either side."

Pete: Ooh. That's good.

Jen: And I feel like that's what you're saying, in response to my early pandemic behavioral choices. Is, by lining up action, action, action, action, action without a pause, the action didn't really have a chance to land. There wasn't stillness on either side.

Pete: Yeah. Okay, I just invented something. I wonder if this is...I don't know if this is true or not, let me just say it. So if mood follows action, does emotion follow pause?

Jen: Perhaps.

Pete: Maybe? Although, we said emotion and motion...maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm just trying to come up with a tweetable takeaway that's not quite there. Also, I just want to say, you say, like, you described so beautifully but almost flippantly like, "The puppeteer of the...", like I feel like "puppeteer" doesn't do justice to what this show...

Jen: I know. I know.

Pete: Like this is, this...it looks like a horse. There is a horse on the stage. Like, I can't even get head around it.

Jen: Galloping.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: We'll have to find...I hope that there is some B-roll available online and we can pop it in the Box O' Goodies, because talk about the magic of theater. That was the most theatrical production. Everything was made by the artists. The artists manipulated every piece of the story that you saw. It was just amazing. But, I digress.

Pete: We digress. We digress. Back to mood follows action. So, are you taking anything away? I feel like we've gone in all sorts of directions. We talked about FOTH, and FOMOO. We just coined new fears, which are great. And I'm wondering what your takeaway might be from this idea, this notion of mood following action.

Jen: Honestly, the biggest thing for me is that it's a mantra I can tuck in my back pocket. Whenever I hear myself say, "I just don't feel like doing it," I can pull that mantra out and say, "But Jen, mood follows action. Take the action, and then see how you feel."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. The MFA: Mood Follows Action.

Jen: Ooh, I like it.

Pete: And I think, tucking it in my back pocket and just reminding myself and anyone listening, how often this can pop up and how it pops up when we don't realize it. Like there's probably things you already do every day that other people look at and go, "How do you keep doing that every day?" And you know, "Oh, because I'll feel better afterwards." Like for me, going for a swim every day. I swim every day in the ocean. Most people say, "How the hell do you do that? That's crazy," or, "Do you feel like doing it every day?" You asked me that on the episode called 100 Swims, and I said, "No, I don't feel like doing it every day." But my mood, as a result of doing it every day, like is exponentially improved. So this idea, I think is, it's already there in things you're doing every day, and we can look for it in things...new habits we're trying to instill, or creative pursuits we're trying to have. And I just think this podcast is such a perfect example. Is that, we don't always show up (shocker) in the mood to record a podcast. But guarantee, within about five minutes of starting to record (I'm sure our listeners can hear it in our voices), we're both like fired up, inspired, bouncing off each other, laughing, coming up with stupid acronyms. So I just, I don't know, I'm ranting now. But I'm obsessed with this idea that mood follows action.

Jen: And you know what, Pete? I feel pretty great after recording this podcast with you.

Pete: Me too. Me too. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.