The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 178 - The Rules

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Well, I am in the middle of a session of my mindset workshop, Shift. And in class today, people were kind of rocked by a pretty simple but profound question that I think is worth unpacking. The question is: Who wrote the rules?

Pete: Who wrote the rules? Okay. I'm very curious about what rules we're referring to, and maybe that's part of this conversation. So let's unpack it, Jennifer. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, so this all falls under a category of conversation in this class that I call, "Consider the source." So, you know, we look at where these external inputs are coming from, where other people's opinions are coming from, whether or not we are validating those opinions, how we're engaging with and accepting and processing feedback, etc., etc. And so many of us are following "rules" without even knowing that they are existing as rules in our lives. But we haven't done any of the work to ask ourselves, "Where did this rule even come from? What does it mean? Do I believe in it? Do I think it's right? Do I want to follow it? What am I going to do about this rule? And who came up with it in the first place?" So in this class, I will offer up some pretty basic things like, "Introduce yourself to someone when you meet them for the first time." Okay, so that seems like a rule that some of us follow. I personally like that rule, so I'm going to follow it because it makes sense for me. But I've also heard the rule specifically as it pertains to job interviews, auditions, rooms that have a hierarchy attached to them, that you should wait until someone else makes the first move. Well, who wrote that rule? Probably someone who liked their position of power.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And it doesn't stand for...that kind of behavior doesn't stand for any of the things I stand for. It doesn't stand for human connection. It doesn't stand for empathy. It doesn't stand for equality. And so that's a rule that, once I examine it, I'm not going to follow it.

Pete: Mmm. Mmm.

Jen: And there are so many others, I mean, dozens, hundreds, probably even thousands of rules that we follow every day but we haven't really taken the time to ask, "Where did this come from?"

Pete: Oh my gosh, I am so obsessed with this. This idea, yeah...I feel like many entrepreneurs have talked about when talking about innovation, the hyperbolic statement is something like, "Other than the rules of physics and gravity, everything else can be bent and broken and challenged and questioned." And, I kind of think that's true. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to challenge them or act on them. Like, we have created a rule that we give way to the right in Australia, I think in America you give way to the left when you're driving, or you stop at a stoplight, or you stop at a round about, and you go through a roundabout in a certain way. That's a rule that we've created as a society that most of us agree is a good use of our time to follow that rule. However, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't question where it came from, get curious about whether and why it's something worth following. In that case, I think it is. But all of these other rules that we've created for ourselves, like what time we go to bed, or what time we wake up in the morning, or what time we start "work", like all of those rules, I feel like, to your point, there's thousands of them every single day that we unconsciously (unconsciously, for sure) follow.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And so, I'm just obsessed with the idea of pausing to almost do an audit on, "What are the rules I'm following at the moment? And where did they come from?" And then what I heard in your intro is almost a third question, which is, "Does this rule align with my values?"

Jen: Yes. Yes.

Pete: And so maybe there's a fourth question, which is like...maybe that's the start, "What are my values?" But that's probably a separate conversation. So yeah, I just, I'm really obsessed with this idea of, "What are the rules in my life that I'm following, and how are they serving me or are they serving me?" Hmm.

Jen: Yeah. And you could really go to town on this and take an entire day asking yourself, "Is this behavior something I've chosen? And is it that I'm following a rule? Am I writing my own rules?" Etc., etc. But the thing I want to focus in on here is when it comes to creative work, or projects, or personal development, moving yourself forward, aiming for something, setting a goal, (all that kind of stuff), how do the rules come into play? Because there are some things which we could actually name as rules, social standards that we are following. But there are other things masquerading as rules, for example, job descriptions.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So when you are applying to a job, for example, you are responding to a job listing that has a job description, where all of the things that an acceptable applicant would need to bring to the table are listed. But the question is, who wrote the job listing? And unless you know, you don't know. This comes up all the time in the world of acting. We engage with these things called breakdowns, which are basically a description of a character. So when casting is looking for someone, they'll name the character and then they'll describe them. And I will hear actors all the time saying, "Well, I'm just not right for that. The breakdown says XYZ." And so, I'll ask, "Who wrote the breakdown?" Crickets. Crickets. "Right. Exactly. You don't know." And so you have to, to some extent, use your own knowledge and your own instinct and impulse to make decisions about whether or not to put yourself forward for certain projects and opportunities, and give the rules maybe the grain of salt that they deserve in that scenario.

Pete: Ah-ha. So, I was going to ask that. So is the goal, with that particular example, to get clear on who wrote the rules so that you can maybe meet them there? Like, is it almost an exercise in empathy? So if I go, "Oh, well, I know Jen wrote the rules. And I know that Jen values this, this, and this. So actually, if I talk to her about this, this, and this, whether or not that makes the breakdown is kind of beside the point, as long as I'm speaking to Jen directly." Is that sort of what you're advocating for, in that example?

Jen: Well, if you can actually answer the question, "Who wrote the breakdown," sure, yeah, absolutely. But nine times out of ten, when I ask the question, the person says, "I don't know." And there's no way for them to actually find out. So that's when a sense of self-trust has to kick into action. You know, Sheryl Sandberg references this in her book, Lean In: Women, Work, and The Will to Lead. And I don't want to butcher it, so I'm going to actually find the thing she's referencing and drop it in the Box O' Goodies. But essentially, people responding to job listings respond in a very gendered way. So research has shown that women, more often than not, if they felt they didn't meet 100% of the job criteria in a job description, wouldn't put themselves forward as a potential candidate. Whereas men, if they met some but certainly not all of the job criteria, would put themselves forward as a potential candidate. That blows my mind, and just an example of how who you are determines how you feel the rules apply to you and whether or not you're going to follow them. So I guess what I'm advocating for is each of us having a deeper relationship with ourselves, so that we can make better decisions to move ourselves forward. We can hide in the rules. We can hide in the fear of breaking them.

Pete: Yeah, okay. Yeah, now we're getting juicy. So I think what I'm particularly curious about as it relates to that last point is, it's almost like every single one of us is operating under a different version of rules. We have some overlapping rules, for sure. Like, I was mentioning the kind of comical example of a stoplight, or a roundabout, or giving way. But then there's like the stories we tell ourselves about job applications, about what kinds of projects are exciting to us, about what is important to us from a financial return perspective, or the value of a project. So, it's almost like part of this is recognizing that the rules that I am following are probably different to the rules that Jen is following. And that's great. That's okay. And so it's not about me blindly following rules that someone else has created, just because I think that's what I need to do. But me actually, to your point, getting really clear in, "What are the rules I want to follow," or, "What are the values I want to use to guide me," and then follow rules that align with that. Like, I don't think we're advocating for just follow no rules whatsoever.

Jen: No, no, no.

Pete: It's actually an exercise in self-awareness, to get really clear on essentially the stories we're telling ourselves. Am I making sense?

Jen: Yes. You are hitting the nail on the head in terms of values. And, you know, it comes down to integrity. What matters to you? What do you believe in? And then, how do your behaviors and your actions line up with those beliefs and values? Okay, here's another example that came to me about following the rules. And this is another theater example, but you could really apply this in many other circumstances. So in the world of the theater, there is this thing that we talk about called the "Do Not Sing List", which is like a list of songs that are "overdone", so you should never sing them.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: Okay. On the list are most of the songs that were in my repertoire when I was a singing person, but one in particular was "I Could Have Danced All Night" from My Fair Lady. That was on every single Do Not Sing List I ever saw. And most of the teachers that I had studied with said, "Never sing an overdone song." So, that would have counted. What song, Peter, do you think I sang to book my first Broadway show? At my callback, I sang, "I Could Have Danced All Night". Now, can you imagine if I had followed that rule of, "Never sing that song because it's overdone?" You and I probably would not be sitting here together right now. My life would have taken a totally different path.

Pete: Yeah. What I'm thinking, in hearing you say that, is that idea that there's always exceptions to the rules or exceptions to the rule. It makes me wonder if it's like, it's worth getting clear in what rules there are, and that could be helpful for many, many people, and I'm sure avoiding that song has served certain people. But it's almost like, you know, I'm reminded of not taking ourselves too seriously, or like loosely holding these rules,-

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: -to give ourselves permission to challenge them. Like I mean, I'm a rule follower from way back, Jen. Like, I am the guy that always wants to get the A. I am looking for the rule, so I can follow the rule, so I can get the A.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: This comes up in so many aspects of my life, so many aspects in my life.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: And I think it's worth us, me thinking about, "What are the rules I follow that I could hold a little more lightly, instead of following them so relentlessly?" And I mean, as a really basic example, I've shared in very early episodes of this podcast, I'm sure, that we used to record this podcast at like 6:00 AM or 6:30 AM, my time.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And that was because one of the rules I had set for myself was, "I get up at 5:00 AM. Like, that's what I do. That's part of Pete being a healthy, functioning adult. I get an hour of Pete time before I jump into recording with Jen. She's on the other side of the world," blah, blah, blah. And I followed that rule for a long time, until all of a sudden, I realized I don't think it was serving me because I became absolutely exhausted. And often it was pitch black, and you're like, "Do you have an idea?" And I'm like, "No. I don't have an idea for a podcast. I just woke up. Like, can you give me a break?" So I had to let go, or relinquish that rule a little bit and like hold it a bit more lightly, to say, "Okay, from now on, you don't take calls before 7:30 AM," which is a new rule that I've instigated. So I guess I share that to, I guess, highlight rules can be helpful until they're not.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And then it's worth us, I don't know, like reevaluating them, reimagining and re-thinking them, holding them a little more lightly. It sounds like you did that, in the example of...or maybe you didn't even know that rule existed, of, "Do not sing this song."

Jen: Oh, no. I knew the rule existed. I just decided to break it. But, you know what's really funny? I think you can replace the word "rule" with "expectation". And then our Tendencies, as defined by Gretchen Rubin, are illuminated. So, you are an Upholder. So it makes perfect sense that you are someone who wants to follow the rules, and check them all off, and get the A. I'm a Questioner. So when you change "rules" to "expectations", I question all expectations. Unless I think it makes sense, I'm not going to do it. So, that is showing up. And I imagine for people who identify as Obligers, that expectation that you'll follow the rule because someone else wants you to can put a lot of pressure on you to conform to how other people wish for you to be. And if you're a Rebel, someone who does not respond well to expectations of any kind, you might even decide to break rules you believe in, simply because someone else said them. So for those of you who are like, "What the hell are you talking about," I'll pop it in the Box O' Goodies, Gretchen Rubin's quiz that you can take to learn your Tendency. It's really fast, and it's easy, and it's quite illuminating when you understand what your Tendency is.

Pete: Mmm. I want to jump into this through the lens of, many of our listeners are leaders in companies, executives, senior managers, entrepreneurs, and even freelancers, or business owners. I think that what you're describing is so important when it comes to innovation, creative thinking, developing solutions for clients. Which is...oh my gosh, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard some version of this, "The way we do things around here is this. So, let's try and solve this problem. Let's deliver the same service we've delivered over the last ten years, because that's how we've always done it around here." That is a rule. That is a rule that you have created, consciously or unconsciously, that is always, always worth challenging, especially as it relates to delivering innovative products. And adapting the most overused, basic, but I think important example, is like the Blockbuster versus Netflix. Blockbuster continued to do things the way they've always done them. That was their rule, "We always do things like this." And in the end, it was the death of the company. Versus Netflix, who was able to think, and innovate, and break rules in the interest of serving where their customers were going. So I just, I'm like obsessed with this idea of getting clear on the rules that you are abiding by, whether consciously or unconsciously, and then as a leader, as a manager, as an entrepreneur, as a freelancer, actually intentionally questioning how they're serving you. What if they weren't true? What if the opposite was true? What if this rule didn't exist? What would be possible? All of this, I think, unlocks innovative thinking, creative thinking, and I know is what you and I spent a bunch of time talking to corporates about. So, I just feel like it's worth emphasizing that for those listening.

Jen: Absolutely. Innovation does not follow the rules.

Pete: Right. Right. That's it. That's the bumper sticker.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I think what's worth re-emphasizing (or emphasizing, if we haven't already), is, every single person has a different set of rules. To some degree, they're tweaked, tailored to them. And so, where we get into trouble, where we get into disagreement is when we think that Jen should be following Pete's rules. But Jen doesn't even know what Pete's set of rules are. That my internal version of what rules I follow, whether that's what time I get up, or how I approach a problem that I'm trying to solve, or what direction I choose to take a particular project, is probably different to Jen's, and that's probably different to someone else's. And that's okay. I guess what I'm trying to say is, my version of reality and the rules that govern that are different to yours. And unless we can hold those a little more loosely, we're just going to be in constant conflict with each other. So I guess what I'm advocating for is more empathy, not only with one another but also with ourselves, to meet ourselves where we're at. Where did this rule come from? Why did I adopt that rule? Can I let this go? Just leading with empathy in order to then get clear on how we might rethink, reshape, reimagine the rules that we are following.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.