The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 183 - The Groan Zone

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I was talking with one of my coaching clients recently, and at the end of the call, this brilliant human asked me a question which I think was quite genius, quite bold, quite brilliant. And embedded in the question was this...just this idea that I think you will love, and I want to share it with you and get your thoughts, and bounce it around as we tend to.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: So the question he asked me was, "Can you give me something that's going to put me in the groan zone, that I need to do between now and our next conversation?"

Jen: Ah, I already love it. The groan zone. Oh my gosh, brilliant. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So, the two things I love most about this...one is the fact that he was willing to ask for something that he knows is going to make him uncomfortable. Like he said, "You've got to give me something that's going to put me in the groan zone." Firstly, to have that posture, like how amazing. If more people could ask one another that question, how good would that be? But then also, just this idea of the groan zone. I feel like everyone listening to this podcast already knows what we're talking about, already identifies with like, "Oh, yeah, one of those tasks." And I felt it myself when he asked me, and I was like, "Okay," so we came up with something that's going to put him in the groan zone. But then in walking away from the conversation, I was like, "Well, I guess I better put myself in the groan zone too." So...

Jen: Yep. I could either laugh in recognition or go, "Ugh," in recognition.

Pete: Groan. So even though I feel like most people are aware of what we're talking about, from my perspective, when I thought about it, when I think about this idea of the groan zone, it's doing something that is going to make you uncomfortable, doing something that makes you literally groan, i.e., "Ugh." And yeah, I think it's as simple as that thing that you know you need to do, that you are avoiding. Whether that be reaching out to someone, or spruiking your work, or having a hard conversation with an employee, or giving feedback, or quitting your job, or going for a new job, like all of these various things that we're very, very good at avoiding and procrastinating from...we, being humans. And we've talked ad nauseum (which we can revisit today, I'm sure), the idea of doing the hard part first, or that, "Difficult choices, easy life. Easy choices, difficult life," that kind of notion, or dichotomy. And I just feel like all of this is related, so like focusing on putting ourselves intentionally into the groan zone as an idea.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I just took so many notes on thoughts that just came up into my head. I feel like we could do a ten-part series on the groan zone.

Pete: A new podcast coming soon called "The Groan Zone".

Jen: "The Groan Zone." And there's no theme music, it's just a chorus of people going, "Ugh." Okay, so here's the first thing, Peter Shepherd. You and I started working together for realzies because we went in the groan zone together. Do you remember when you were my coach during the altMBA, I scheduled a coaching with you and I said, "Ask me all the hard questions, the hardest questions you can think of?"

Pete: Yeah. You invited me to take you to the groan zone.

Jen: Yes, "Take me to the groan zone." So, it's so interesting because your client asked for groan zone homework, which I think is like one version of how to go to the groan zone, like have someone assign you something or challenge you to do something and then you go do it on your own. There's also like a groan zone conversation, or groan zone questions...I feel like there's probably a whole menu of groan zone options to choose from. But it just, it reminded me that that's how you and I really got to know each other, was because you were willing to go there with me and I was willing to ask you to take me there.

Pete: Yeah. And what you didn't know at the time was that it's your request kind of sent me into the groan zone, which was like-

Jen: I know that now, but I did not know that then.

Pete: Yeah. Which was me being like, "Oh my god, what pressure to ask Jen Waldman all of the hard questions. Like, ugh, how am I possibly going to come up with the question?" And that, yeah, that sent me spiraling into my own little groan zone.

Jen: Right? Okay, so then there's something else that I want to bring up about this. This is something I've talked ad nauseum to my students about, and something you and I discussed in Episode 46 of The Long and The Short Of It called Risks, which is that cute little meme of a circle that says, "Your comfort zone", and then outside the circle, it says, "Where the magic happens". And I've pushed back on that a little bit to say that I think there are multiple zones, not just the comfort zone. There's a discomfort zone, which I think we would label the groan zone, of like, "Ooh, this feels like this is really uncomfortable, or this is really hard." And then beyond the groan zone, or the discomfort zone, is the panic zone, where you're sort of left going, "I literally am harming myself, because I don't know how to survive here. Like, I don't have the skills. I don't have the resources. Like, this is a dangerous place for me to be." And the thing that I like about the groan zone is like, you can only really groan if you can take a breath. Like, you need breath to support the foundation of a groan. And if you can groan, you know you're not in the panic zone, because you're not like hyperventilating about it, which I like.

Pete: Right.

Jen: The other thing it reminds me of is (and I'm sure we talked about this in the Risks episode too) the difference between a challenge and a risk. Something that's going to elicit a groan from me, at least, is something I know I can do, I just don't want to do it.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's a challenge, for whatever reason. Whereas a risk where I don't know what the outcome might be, likely is not going to get groan from me. So, I'm wondering if like a healthy combination of the two is useful.

Pete: Oh, that's interesting. I feel like, I mean, all of what you just said feels incredibly useful. Which is firstly, for me to just reflect back what I heard, the recognition that we're not suggesting always do things outside of...like, that are going to make you uncomfortable. Because there is like important discomfort that is a signal to not do something, i.e. panic. So like, we don't want to go into the hyperventilating zone, necessarily.

Jen: Correct.

Pete: We're talking about like just that mild discomfort where you feel a little queasy in your tummy, and you're like, "Ugh, damn it. I know I can do that." Like you said, "I know I can do that. But I just don't want to." And then there's a whole series of questions, I think, or like curiosities around, "What is it that we don't want? Like, why don't we want to do it?" And it's, I imagine, a fear of what other people will think of us, or a fear of it not quite going to plan, or a fear of us having to maybe upset someone because we've giving them hard feedback, or all of the fears that come within that. That, yeah, I think that's worth (just like you mentioned) articulating the difference between a panic zone and the...it's like that right kind of discomfort. And then the last thing you mentioned, which is like the right kind of risk, and how they might overlap. Hmm. It's like, you know, there's a time and a place for comfort, right? Like if I'm buying underwear or socks, I don't need to like...[lauhgter] like, let's not-

Jen: Don't take me to the groan zone, please.

Pete: Exactly. Let's not think about discomfort when it comes to like underwear and socks. Again, time and a place for comfort. We're not suggesting like, "Avoid comfort." However, we also know, I think...and there's this question in this book that I have been thinking about over and over again (which I think rhymes here) which is Four Thousand Weeks, Oliver Burkeman. I'm going to put it in the Box O' Goodies, highly recommend it. It's a real delightful/painful punch in the gut when it comes to time management. And one of the questions he poses right at the end is, "Where in your life are you seeking comfort when what's called for is some discomfort?"

Jen: Ooh, that's good.

Pete: And I think that's what we're talking about. It's like, "I'm seeking the comfortable replying to emails, when really what's called for is the discomfort of walking over to my colleague and having to have that whole conversation. Like, that's the groan zone." So yeah, I feel like I just threw a lot at you, but these are my reactions.

Jen: No, I'm laughing right now because I realize I was so in the groan zone yesterday, to the point where I procrastinated by answering emails.

Pete: Woah. Woah.

Jen: I needed to send...I opened up my email because I needed to send an email to someone to apologize to them for something. And it was so groan-y. Like I needed to do it, but I didn't want to do it because it made me uncomfortable and I had to face myself. So instead, I answered twelve emails.

Pete: Which, for the new listeners in this world, this is like ultimate non-Jen Waldman behavior. Like, this could not be further from who you are.

Jen: And then I caught it, and I was like, "Wow, I'm real out of character right now. Let's get back. Let's get back in the groan zone and write the email that you actually need to write." Which, I did, but it was uncomfortable.

Pete: Yeah. So I think that one useful thing that we've discussed is like labeling things as the groan zone. And then I'm like, I'm curious about...like you caught yourself, in that example. How do we step into it? Is there a strategy or a way to actually do it? You know? Knowing it's something that's going to make us groan, how do we, I guess, reduce the friction or see the possibility on the other side? Like, how do you think about navigating the groan zone?

Jen: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the 1-3-5 productivity idea, which is that you would name the one thing that if you did that thing today, it would be a successful day. And then you name the three things you could do after that, and then the five things after that. It's possible you could name number one, the groaniest thing of the day.

Pete: I like that, the groaniest thing of the day. And so, you can't get on with the rest of your day until you've done the groaniest thing.

Jen: Until you've groaned.

Pete: Ugh, that is painful. Yeah. That was not a performative groan, that was a legitimate groan, as I think about doing that.

Jen: No, that was meta. It was a meta groan.

Pete: It was really meta.

Jen: But the other thing is like, we know that change and progress is a product of pain. And I'm not suggesting everyone goes around looking for pain, but there is a stasis or a stagnation that happens when you are not experiencing any groaning. There is a sort of sameness. "I'm exactly where I am, and this is where I will stay," which over time actually becomes a degradation of what you have. Like if you aren't stretching yourself, the skills that you have will start to degrade. There is science behind this. Maybe I should pop a little something about that in the Box O' Goodies.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And so, maybe it's even like...it could be even like a journal that you keep, a groan journal, where at the end of the day, you name what made you groan. And if you have a blank day, then you go, "Okay. Tomorrow, I really have to challenge myself."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. So I think you're right, that the reason it's useful to lean into groaning is that...I mean, I know everyone listening to this podcast can think of an example where they did something that made them groan, and as a result, they made a stronger connection with this person afterwards, or it unlocked something for them that they couldn't have seen before, or something positive happens maybe way down the line but as a result of leaning into that discomfort. So I think that it's worth remembering that possibility sits on the other side of a groan, even though there might be some short-term discomfort. And to your point around creating change and growth, I mean, I just think about this very literally, as someone who's six-foot-seven and went through a year of growing pains where I had a sore back, sore shins, I couldn't really exercise when I was like fifteen/sixteen because of my literal growing pains. And I had to go through them in order to get to be the person that I am now, which is someone who's six-foot-seven. So it's like this very literal example but I think it's such a useful, at least for me, metaphor to think about. When I'm growing, when I'm changing my brain or my ideas, there's going to be some discomfort. And I think what we're saying is the discomfort here is the groan. So, we can't...well, we can but it might not get us very far. We can't ignore it, is what I was going to say. It's more that in order to progress, or change, or grow, we need to kind of recognize it and lean into it.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. And also, I just want to say for the record, can't relate...can't relate to the growth thing.

Pete: Did you have growing pains, being five-foot-one?

Jen: I have no memory of ever having a growing pain, ever in my life. My daughter has them, but I don't remember ever having them...

Pete: Huh, yeah.

Jen: ...as evidenced by my height. Okay, so my mind just went down this weird path of acknowledging that I could see comparison becoming a problem when you think about your groan versus someone else's groan. And so I just want to like pull on whatever thread is tugging at me right now, that what might be a risk for you might be a challenge for someone else, and what might be a challenge for you, putting you in the groan zone, might be a huge risk for someone else. And I think this is just my way of saying, "Meet yourself where you are." You know what makes you grow.

Pete: Mmm. Ah.

Jen: So in your client's case,-

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: -you could have offered up the assignment and they could have said to you, like, "Actually, that's pretty easy for me."

Pete: Right.

Jen: Or, like, "I have absolutely no idea how to even do that." But instead, whatever it was you assigned them was like, "Oh...yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's it." But I think it's like knowing yourself enough to keep yourself honest.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So that we're not hiding, and labeling something as a groan when it's really not.

Pete: Yeah. Well, and I don't think my client would mind me sharing, it was a reach out to someone who they admire. And guess what? I got a message this morning that was like, "They replied. They replied to my reach out." And like, the groan had turned into this kind of euphoric like, "Oh my god," moment. And so, yeah, I just...there's a positive ending to the leaning into the groan in this case. Hmm. The other thing I just feel like is worth saying out loud is that we can think of groans as...I love that we're just still talking about groans, by the way. It's almost like thinking of them as, it's like the true to-do list. You know?

Jen: Oh, that's so good.

Pete: It's like, if you think of something and you go, "Oh no. That makes me groan." It's like that's the signal, the sign that you need, to know that's the thing you should do.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: It's a compass.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I'm stealing this. The true to-do list.

Pete: Yeah, or the groan compass. You know, like...?

Jen: Oh my gosh. Well, it's so true. Because to get out of being in the groan zone, you could go to that to-do list, like I was saying with my email, and check off every single thing and be like, "I am a to-do queen," but the one true to-do didn't get checked.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm.

Jen: Mmm. Wow, this is such a wonderful and cheeky way of talking about how to make yourself uncomfortable. And in a recent episode, we talked about you and I both needing to push through the nagging question of, "What's next?" This seems like maybe another tool to put in the "what's next" toolbox. "Go to the groan zone."

Pete: Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. When wondering what to do next, think about, "What's going to make me groan? Go to the groan zone." Yeah. I also...I was going to say this earlier but like we brushed past it, but I'm going to bring it up now. You were talking about like how there's almost different parts of our life where different groan zones appear. And I was thinking of like chores. You know? When you're trying to enjoy a relaxing evening but in the back of your head, you know you have to put the bins out, and you just like, the thought of it just makes you want to groan but you can't quite enjoy relaxing because you know you've got to put the bins out. And so, it's like, "Just do the bins, Pete. Pete, put the bins out. I'm talking to you."

Jen: Oh my gosh. We need like a groan matrix of like high effort groans, and low effort groans, and high pay off groans, and low pay off groans. Oh my gosh, this is just so funny to me. But also, like unbelievably useful.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Thank you to your client for introducing us to the groan zone.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes. So I'm going to start thinking about my to-do list through the lens of the groan zone, and I encourage all of our listeners to do the same.

Jen: Check off those true to-dos. Ugh. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.