The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 193 - Humility

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So there's a topic, or an idea, or a word that has come up in eight of the last twenty-five-ish podcasts, but we've never done an episode about it specifically.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I'm scanning my memory bank. I'm like, "What's the word? What's the word?"

Pete: Well, it's a word and an idea that I feel like everyone is familiar with. I think I've perhaps become a little more cognizant of, perhaps obsessed with in the last six months.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: And the word is humility.

Jen: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Pete: So I thought that...well, A., I would like to pick your brain on how you feel about humility, and then just maybe share some thoughts on how I think about it.

Jen: Yes. Many times, you have said both on and off this podcast, "Humility is a superpower." This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Indeed. So I think that humility is 100% a superpower, I'm convinced of it. Again, I feel like I've always, perhaps to some degree, acknowledged that or known that or thought that. But for some reason, in the last six months, it's really crystallized for me, perhaps because of the work I've been doing with certain executives, perhaps because of certain books like Think Again by Adam Grant. I mean, the entire book is kind of a case for humility, really, in a way. So it could be that I'm just consuming certain things, and I've become more intentional about this idea. But yes, I definitely believe humility is a superpower. And I just don't think I've ever asked you, like, "Jen, what's your thoughts, perspective, ideas around humility? How do you see this idea play out in your world?" Because I see it, from a leadership perspective, as being a really important superpower. But I'm curious about, in your world, what does humility mean?

Jen: Well, I think I want to start with what humility does not mean. Humility does not mean making yourself small.

Pete: Oh, no.

Jen: And I just feel like that's an important thing to call out. You can be strong, and courageous, and even audacious while maintaining a posture of humility.

Pete: Yes. There's a line I always liked, which is, "Humility is not about thinking less of yourself. It's about thinking of yourself less."

Jen: Mmm. Ooh, I like that.

Pete: Which I quite like, yeah, it's poetic.

Jen: Yeah. You know, I, like you but in a different way, I work in the empathy business. Acting is basically an empathetic exercise. Creating theatre and putting it in front of audiences is an empathetic exercise. And when I think about humility, I think about what it creates. So, humility breeds relatability.

Pete: Yeah. Ooh.

Jen: You can relate to someone who's humble, right?

Pete: Right.

Jen: I think humility creates approachability. That when someone demonstrates their humility, you feel like you can be inside something with them.

Pete: Right. You can trust them.

Jen: Right. Yeah, humility creates trust. So many of the "real skills" that we talk about are a product of humility. And ultimately, when you add all of those things up, you make empathy possible. So I feel like humility is almost like the gateway skill to empathy.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. Ooh, I like that. But also the gateway to, like you mentioned, other real skills like curiosity, or collaboration, or innovation, like coaching, or receiving feedback, or giving feedback, like all of these skills require first a degree of humility. So, I totally agree. The point around it breeding relatability, I think is really fascinating. I actually think this is why certain thought leaders, or authors, or just people in general that maybe we put on pedestals feel more relatable. And I think that it comes down to, they display a level of humility. Like I think about why many people love Brene Brown, is because she says things like, "Here's what the research suggests that I've discovered. I know, it sucks. I hate it too. I have arguments with my husband, Steve, all the time. This is how it goes. But this is what the research suggests." So she's like very much with the audience or the listener or the reader in saying, "This sucks. I suck at it. And let's figure it out together." Which, to me, is like she's leading with humility. And then I think about, you know, like Dax Shepard of the Armchair Expert podcast, and Monica Padman. Both of them lead with this like almost jarring level of humility, where you're like, "Oh my gosh, they're just like laying it out there. They're just laying it out there." And as a result, I feel more connected to them in a weird way, of like, "Oh, they're relatable because they're just weird, quirky, bizarre humans just like me." So, you know, I just I love that idea of being relatable. Humility leads to relatability.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: So while we're on the topic of thought leaders, or public figures, leaders that a lot of people are aware of and how they might display humility, I think about Bob Iger who was the CEO of Walt Disney for a long time. In his book, I think it's called The Ride of a Lifetime. I'll pop it in the Box O' Goodies, The Ride of a Lifetime, yeah. Bob Iger talks about how he was one of the first CEOs...and I'm possibly butchering this, but it goes along the lines of, he was one of the first CEOs to step into that role within Walt Disney to not have a background in the entertainment industry. And that was like very much triggering for his imposter. It was very much triggering for certain people around him who responded in a certain way, perhaps gave him a hard time because of the fact that he didn't know that industry like they did, and so, “Who was he to be in that role?” And he talks about "confident humility", which, you know, I don't know if there's a difference between humility and confident humility. But he talks about, very openly, straddling that line between dancing with your imposter, i.e., "I have been put in this position because of this reason, this reason, this reason, and I'm confident that I can show up in a way that is going to help this company thrive. And I totally acknowledge that I don't know this industry as well as you, and that I'm here to learn. And so, I'm going to shut up and listen. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions. And I'm going to display, effectively, humility, to get up to speed on the things that I don't know." It's like the mix of standing in your power but also recognizing where you have blind spots. He writes about it really well, which is why I bring it up. But I think it's an interesting tension to straddle. Because like you said, it's not about thinking less of yourself, it's like a level of self-awareness to recognize what you're good at and where your gaps are.

Jen: Yeah. You know, this is reminding me of a conversation I had with a client a couple of days ago. This is not an acting client, this is an other life client, who is in this position right now where he has to keep introducing himself to people who may or may not want to work with his company. And part of the struggle he's having is, he knows that in order to entice someone to want to work with his company, he needs to be able to say the things that he's accomplished. But the things that he's accomplished are so crazy impressive, that they're distancing. And so, he was like going over his, "How do I introduce myself?" And he's like, "I kind of need to say to them, 'I've done this amazing thing. And I've done this amazing thing. And I've done this amazing thing. Don't you want to work with me?'" And I was like, "Yes, and the humility in this is you finding excitement in wanting to work with them, not that they should be excited to work with you. So you can say the things you need to say, like, 'You know, I did this amazing thing,' but the way you frame it, 'I'm so excited to tell you about this amazing thing because I know that you're interested in similar things, and it lights me up to get to talk to someone who's as interested in this as I am.'" So, there's like also humility as a framing device for communicating the information you want to communicate to someone else.

Pete: I like that.

Jen: But like true humility, not like bullshit humility.

Pete: Right, right, right. Not faux humility, yeah. I wrote a post on my blog a couple days ago, called "Humility sounds like...," and I just had like a bunch of one-liners that I was like, "If you hear this, then you're probably hearing something that sounds a little like humility. Like, 'I don't have all the answers,' or, 'I'm curious to learn more,' or, 'What do you think, Jen,' or, 'I'd love to get your perspective on this.'" Like these kinds of things, which I think you just articulated really well, to me is what humility sounds like. It's recognizing that I don't know everything, nor do I need to know everything. And so then, getting curious about what other people can bring to your lack of knowledge, or your particular project, or your particular business, whatever it is, that like having the humility to recognize someone else can add value to the thing is what humility sounds like.

Jen: Yeah. I'm also looking at this from another angle, which is false confidence when what would be true is humility. So I was working with an acting client today, and she's essentially reaching out to potential agents. And the first draft of the reach-outs were like, "These are all the amazing things I've accomplished as an actor. Don't you want to represent me?" And I was saying to her, "If you've accomplished all of these amazing things as an actor, why do you need them? Like this false confidence, when what's actually true for you is you are feeling the humility of, 'I need help. You might be a great fit.' It doesn't mean that you're not bringing value. Of course you're bringing value, and you need to articulate your value. But let us not pretend like there's no problem here. Because how can someone help you if they don't know that there's a problem?"

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Precisely, precisely. This, to me, was the really interesting point around that tension that Bob Iger describes, which is the, "How do you communicate in a way that demonstrates confidence in what you know, and humility in what you don't know?"

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Like, that's hard. It's really hard. First, we have to be aware of what we're good at, confident enough to talk about it. But also, then we have to have the awareness of what we're not so good at or where the problem is or where the gaps are, and then be brave enough and willing enough and vulnerable enough to also share that part.

Jen: Isn't what you're describing, in addition to humility, like literally the foundation of effective collaboration?

Pete: Ooh, say more. Say more.

Jen: Well, if you knew all the answers, you would never need a collaborator. You'd just do the whole thing yourself.

Pete: Right.

Jen: But part of the joy of collaboration is recognizing that you have something to offer, that someone else doesn't necessarily have the ideas that you have, but that you also have a deficit in a certain area, which is the place the other person excels or thrives.

Pete: Right. I 100% agree. And I feel like it's not as obvious to certain people, as you might think.

Jen: Ah.

Pete: So I think about like, I've been...I'm sure many people have experienced a leader like this, or a manager like this in a company, for example, where they might be saying the right thing around like, "Let's collaborate on this thing." But what they're actually doing in that collaboration session is giving off the sense that they already know the answer, and so this is kind of like moot. Like, they're collaborating because they think that that's the right thing to do. It's like performative collaboration or something. But if there's a lack of trust, a lack of psychological safety, and a sense that the manager has already decided what we're going to do, or they already know the right answer, then that's not really collaboration. But I agree with you, in order for collaboration to be effective, everyone in the room has to have some sense that there's no predetermined answer here yet, and that my voice, my input is just as heavily weighted as the person on the other side of the tables. Which, yes, requires a level of every single person bringing humility.

Jen: Yeah. So this whole conversation is just making me want to do some self-examination in the immediate future over where I could adopt the Adam Grant Think Again mentality, and like really open up the humility valve, which feels like it's the same valve as the vulnerability valve.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: So, you know, then the fear monster shows up and is like, "Close it down. Close it down, quickly."

Pete: "Shut it down. Close the vault. Close the vault." Yeah, so true. So true. Yeah. I think the reference to Adam Grant's Think Again is so important, because he talks about thinking like a scientist. And the thing I really like about the idea of thinking like a scientist is, often a scientist will take the approach of, "Here is an assertion. Please prove me wrong. Like, this might be wrong. In fact, this is probably wrong. Show me where it's wrong." Which is like the opposite to the approach that so many people take, or that we all take, which is like, "Here is my assertion, which is definitely right."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Or, "Here all the reasons my idea is right." It's actually...yeah, I think there's a level of humility to lead with the opposite, which is, "There's a fair chance it's wrong. Please help me find out why."

Jen: Mmm. It's just such an incredible posture to take. I think it's easy to have a fear voice come up that says, "Well, that must mean you're weak."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And as a Questioner, I'm very attracted to the language, "Think like a scientist."

Pete: Yeah, I bet.

Jen: Whenever I'm feeling like I can't open my humility/vulnerability valve, that will actually be a tool of permission, for me to go, "Jen, think like a scientist right now." That would be helpful for me.

Pete: Yeah. Well, there's also the tool, which we've talked about in a recent episode called Bad Ideas, where you say something like, "Oh, let's brainstorm a bunch of really terrible ideas." Like that is really, I think, a great way to lead with humility and to model the fact that, "The things that we come up with are probably not going to be good. In fact, I don't want us to come up with good ideas."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I think in that episode, we talked about the fact that all good ideas eventually come from bad ideas. So it's highlighting the value of leading with humility, by acknowledging the fact that the work initially is not going to be very good. And so I feel like this moment would only be fair if I was to say, and preface this entire episode by saying, I don't know if this is actually true. These are just a bunch of ideas and a bunch of assertions I have about leadership, and I have about a particular skill which I think is humility, which I observe to be very prevalent in a lot of great leaders I know. However, if you disagree, if you don't think humility is a superpower, if you think that I've completely missed something, please let me know. Email us at hello@thelongandtheshortpodcast.com. We're just here to ask questions, make assertions, and hopefully get better as a result.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.