The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 194 - Attitude

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I've had this experience a couple of times in the last month where I'm doing a keynote or running a workshop, and we will often finish with a Q&A portion. And in both situations, I've said something, the same thing, sort of off the cuff. And in both situations, someone has been like, "Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah. Can you say that again? Can you explain that some more? Like, that's a bit of a mic drop." And I'm like, "Oh, is it? Interesting." So I want to share it with you, get your reactions, get your thoughts, maybe you can help me understand why this particular idea or thought could be helpful/mic drop worthy.

Jen: Alright. Now, you and I both replaced our microphones already so don't drop it too hard.

Pete: It just doesn't even feel like a mic drop. I mean, it's four words. It doesn't feel like a mic drop at all, but let's see how we go. The four words are, "Attitude is a skill." Attitude is a skill.

Jen: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Boom. Did you hear that mic drop?

Pete: No, it's not even.

Jen: Boom.

Pete: Okay, so I have a bunch of context I can give as to why and how this even came up in both Q&A portions, and what the nature of the keynote was that led to this conversation. But firstly, I'm just curious, what does Jen Waldman think of when she hears this idea that attitude is a skill?

Jen: I agree, 1,000%.

Pete: Okay. Say more, say more.

Jen: As a person who, once upon a time, sought the negative, looked for problems, expected the worst in people, turning that around and deciding to have a different attitude about how I was going to move through the world requires a lot of work, a lot of practice. And anything that requires work and practice, I'm going to call a skill.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. I like that. Yeah. So in the context of what I was talking about, in both instances, I was doing a keynote/workshop for a bunch of leaders/executives within two separate companies. And we were talking about the real human skills of leadership. We were talking about how to lead with humility, how to lead with empathy, how to lead with curiosity. We talked a little bit about impostor syndrome, and what that looks like. Like, I would say the things that I am most comfortable talking about on a stage. And then in the Q&A portion, the question...I have to paraphrase it, because I can't quite remember. But the question that came up was some version of, "How do you keep these top of mind? Or how do I ensure my team are on board with these ideas, especially when we're busy and we don't have time?" And in my way, of trying to highlight to them that, "Yes, we're all busy. Yes, we all have a million things to do. And things like humility, empathy, and curiosity require deliberate and intentional practice, because they are skills." And I think off the back of that, I said something like, "Because all attitudes are skills." And so the reason I share this as my context is definitely in alignment with what you said, which is, there are a bunch of things outside of our control, 100%. And we get to decide and choose how we might show up to interact with those things. And yes, it is really freaking hard. And yes, it is a skill or a practice even (we practice skills), because you never kind of reach an end destination. Which is something I'm more than happy to talk about in terms of, you might be great at practicing the skill on one day and then terrible at practicing the skill the next day, or great in one moment and then terrible in the next. So that to me, again, suggests, "Oh, it's a skill." It's not a physical trait, like being tall. Like, I am always tall. I'm never not tall.

Jen: Right. Me too, me too.

Pete: You're always small. That's not a skill. So anyway, I guess that is the context. And so I'm like, still in this moment trying to unpack, why is that? And how is that so helpful, for people to hear that, "Oh, right, of course. Attitude is a skill."

Jen: I immediately want to go to the idea of growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Some people really believe that they are who they are, and that's the end of the story. And so, the idea that they could grow and change and evolve is foreign. And adopting that growth mindset can be kind of uncomfortable if you've worked with the belief for so long that you just are who you are. The other thing is that we have an attitude already. And because we didn't, perhaps, deliberately develop it, that attitude doesn't feel like a skill. Like, when I was really looking all the time for what was going wrong and how were things terrible, that was a skill. I just didn't mean to develop it. I didn't know I was developing it. So, when...I don't know, have I ever shared this story on the podcast?

Pete: I don't think so.

Jen: When my friend, Tony Galdi...I don't know if he listens to this podcast or not...hey, Tony. When Tony Galdi invited me to his home in New Jersey for what I thought was going to be a sleepover with his then small son, we were going to have like a movie night or something, and I got there and he literally said, "This is an intervention."

Pete: Oh my gosh. Woah.

Jen: And I was like, "What?" And he said, "Yes. You are like a great cloud of doom, and nobody wants to be around you. You just constantly are looking for how everything's wrong." And I was like, "What? I am?” And then when I paid attention to it, I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm really good at that. I've got to turn that around," and had to actively seek good things, practice good finding, look for the best in people, choose optimism. Like, it actually had to become a skill that I wanted to develop.

Pete: Yeah. I love the examples you give of how we might work on, or improve, or even just get aware of our attitude. I think, like for me, that's why something like a gratitude practice is so helpful, because the science suggests that it literally changes the way in which you view the lens in which you view life through. So if you are more aware of and thankful for the things that you already have, as opposed to bemoaning the things you do not have, then it changes the way that you show up, i.e. you are refining and cultivating a different attitude, which projects outwards. So the practice of gratitude is one example of choosing optimism, I think that you mentioned, is another example. I think that in the past, we've talked about having healthy habits, or for you going for a run or meditating, or for me going for a swim, like all of these, I think, are active choices that have a positive influence on our attitude, on the way that we show up, and that's kind of why we do them.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: How do you feel about that?

Jen: Yes, I agree. You know, I'm thinking about what you were sharing about the Q&A, and how...I know you're paraphrasing, but the the gist was, "How do we get our team on board with this when they're so tired, they're so overworked, they don't have the room to care about it?" That, in and of itself, is an attitude.

Pete: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Jen: And that attitude has been developed and reinforced over weeks, years. And so it's going to take effort and skill to shift that attitude away from, "Our team is just too busy to do anything they care about," to, "We care, and so we will make the time for the things we care about."

Pete: I'm glad you shared that, because this was where it almost felt like a cop out. You know when someone asks you a question in the Q&A portion of your workshop or your keynote, and you realize it's a reason to re-emphasize the thing that you just shared in your keynote or your workshop?

Jen: Yes. You're like, "Thank you so much for setting me up here."

Pete: Right, exactly. And so I was kind of like, "This is the reason why empathy, humility, curiosity, intentionality, these real skills are so important. Is, you, as the leader, have to intentionally create the conditions for your people to then be able to focus on their own attitude or have space to not be so busy, so they can actually think about some of these things. You need to be the one that creates the psychological safety, where they actually feel like they belong. That is on you, as a leader, to hone that skill."

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Pete: "Create that different attitude, or the space for a new attitude."

Jen: Yes. In this moment, I'm realizing that I am conflating...and maybe it's right to do so, and maybe not. I am conflating attitude and mindset. Like, I'm conflating attitude with the way a person chooses to see the world. And I'm just wondering, what is your definition of attitude?

Pete: Yeah. The way I've thought about it is, it's the way we choose to show up.

Jen: Mmm. Yeah.

Pete: And so I think that overlaps a little bit with mindset, but maybe there are some differences. Like, the thing that I've thought about the most, you know, like before bringing this to the podcast, I was thinking, "Have we ever talked about something like this before," as I tend to. And I thought, "The closest thing we've had was the old famous Authenticity vs Integrity episode."

Jen: Uh-oh...

Pete: The most controversial episode ever created of The Long and The Short Of It, where we had some people who were like, "This just changed my life," and some people were like, "I hate you. I'm never listening to the podcast again." I'm exaggerating, but they disagreed with the premise. And I feel like where I'm thinking about attitude, it might actually be aligned with that idea that the ability to show up in integrity with ourselves is a choice, in the same way that the ability to show up with a certain attitude is also a choice.

Jen: Yeah. I did a blog post...oh gosh, I can't remember when, maybe a couple years ago...and the image is a glass that has water halfway in it. I don't want to give a point of view, it is a glass with water inside it. And the question is, "Is the glass half empty, or half full?" Right? That's the eternal question. And how you answer that is a reflection of your attitude, also your mindset. And for something like a glass of water, it feels safe to dig into that, because who really cares about a glass of water? When you think about it on the larger scale of your attitude about life, it actually can be quite a profound question if the glass is half empty or half full. And if your impulse is, "Well, the glass is half empty," that doesn't make you a bad person, and doesn't even mean you have a bad attitude. It's just like a chance to check in and go, "Oh, my default is to choose this. It's going to require energy and effort to move from, 'The glass is half empty,' to, 'The glass is half full.'" Which P.S., Benjamin Zander, who wrote one of our favorite books, The Art of Possibility, says that, "The person who says the glass is half full is the realist here, because they are talking about what is actually there."

Pete: Hmm. Oh, interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I do like the way that you distinguish, though, that getting an understanding of whether you are the kind of person who sees it as full or empty doesn't mean it's good or bad. Either way, it just is. And it's a reflection on this idea that we're talking about, which is, they're skills. Whether we are aware of it or not, whether we think it's full or empty impacts our attitude, which in order to change requires practice, i.e. this whole thing is a skill.

Jen: Exactly. Exactly.

Pete: Now, the thing I also like to remind myself of (myself of, in particular, but others) with skills is that because they are skills, we are going to forget to improve on them some days, or we're going to slip up. Because you don't, like I said, it's not like being tall, where this is always true. So something like empathy is an awesome skill to practice and cultivate and hone, but there are going to be moments in your life where you're not empathetic, where you fail, or you forget, or you trip up on that idea because you react to something emotionally or whatever, you get caught up in the moment, maybe you're tired, etc., etc. So I think it's just worth emphasizing that, even though we might be trying to cultivate a certain attitude, there will be moments where we forget to show up with that attitude. So just the other day, actually, I was cutting up some broccoli for dinner. And Tracey came home and picked up one of the pieces of broccoli, which was about the size of her head, and she's like, "How are you planning on us eating this? This is the size of my head." And in that moment, I didn't show up as my best self, and I took it really personally, of like, "Ah, here I am trying to prepare us dinner, and do the right thing. You know, like, I have the right attitude. And now, here you are criticizing me for trying to do the right thing." And like, I had this internal spiral. And on reflection, I recognize I was tired and grumpy. I didn't have the attitude that I seek to cultivate of being open to feedback. And she was right. The broccoli was the size of her head. There was no way we were possibly going to eat it. So I share that ridiculous example, but also a very real human example, because I think that it's just important to recognize skills require constant attention and practice.

Jen: Yes. Oh my gosh. That story really made me laugh, Pete.

Pete: I don't even know where that came from. Apparently, I'm still processing the broccoli florets.

Jen: Well, because attitude is a skill and you're working on your skill set. Okay?

Pete: Also, I'm sorry, Tracey. You were right.

Jen: The other day, I was talking with my therapist and I shared something that I use a lot....I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast before...which is just like a very simple shift when I am looking to adjust my own attitude. And maybe it will be helpful for someone, for me to share it. When I have the thought, "This is happening to me," I change it to, "This is happening." And I get so much perspective, and distance, and I'm able to see things I couldn't otherwise see, which helps my attitude remain optimistic, positive, full of gratitude, and all of those things. But when I feel like something is happening to me, I fall back in my old habit of bad finding. And so to practice good finding, I have to go, "This is simply happening. It's not happening, to me. It's happening."

Pete: Yeah. So, in the broccoli example...

Jen: Always bring it back to the broccoli.

Pete: Bring it back to the broccoli floret. In the broccoli example, you're right, I made the reaction that, "This is happening to me. Someone is giving me feedback that is attacking me, and my personality, or my attitude, or the way that I choose to show up." I took it very personally. But you're right, instead, the response of like, "This is just happened. Someone has pointed out that the broccoli is far too large to consume. And so, I get to choose what I want to do about that. Do I recut the broccoli? Probably." I didn't, but I should have. Cut to dinner time, and Tracey very hilariously made her point by sticking the fork in a piece of broccoli and just holding it up for like just a couple of seconds before she attempted to put it in her mouth. And in that moment, I was like, "Oh, okay, you were right. Yeah, you were right. The broccoli is too big."

Jen: Oh my gosh, it's too funny. It's just funny.

Pete: Yeah. Anyway, I think the reason that example may be relevant, and everything that you just shared, is that, for me, it feels like the takeaway is, firstly, let's get clear about, "How do I want to show up? What is the attitude I seek to cultivate?" And then once we've got clear in that, recognizing it's a skill, it's like, "What are the habits, or the behaviors, or the things I'm going to do to cultivate said skill? Am I going to practice mindfulness, speak to a therapist, do a lot of exercise, ask for feedback, read," whatever the habits are that then feed that skill of cultivating the right attitude. So, that's for ourselves. And then, I think the other thing that we talked about is, as a leader, or as someone that's interacting with other humans or leading them, "How do we help others recognize and make space for the skill of attitude?" And we talked about that being the responsibility of a leader, to try and create the conditions for others to choose new actions, to try and create the conditions for others to hone their skills. That, to me, is kind of like the goal of a great leader. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are ways in which we can hone our own attitude. And as a leader, there are ways in which we can hone and create space for other people to hone their attitude.

Jen: Well, Pete, turns out those four little words, "Attitude is a skill," are incredibly helpful and mic drop worthy. And I'd like to leave you with five other words. Are you ready?

Pete: I'm ready.

Jen: "Chopping broccoli is a skill."

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.