The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 205 - Give More F*cks

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Audience: [applause and shouts of excitement]

Jen: As you can hear, we are not alone today.

Pete: We're live.

Jen: We are live in New York City, coming at you from Hudson Yards/Chelsea.

Pete: Thanks for having me, Hudson Yards/Chelsea.

Jen: Happy to have you. And Pete, let me tell you, you are going to fucking love today's episode.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: Did you just swear?

Jen: I fucking did.

Audience: [more laughter]

Pete: Oh my god. What is happening?

Jen: We're going to talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Audience: [applause]

Pete: This is the first time you've ever sworn in our intro, I think.

Jen: In the intro, I think that's true.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I think that's true.

Pete: Yeah. Definitely, there's been some swearing during the episodes.

Jen: There has. Sorry, mom.

Pete: [laughing] Sorry, Laurie.

Jen: Okay, so the reason I wanted to fucking swear in the intro is because over the summer, I've been working with a bunch of my coaching clients in my summer coaching program...some of whom are in the audience right now, which is pretty cool. And we've been working on reach outs: how to actually reach out to people, share an idea, connect, introduce yourself, etc., etc.. And most of the time, I get the first draft and it reads sort of like an academic essay, where it's very serious, it's very polite.

Pete: Ah, yes. "To whom it may concern..."

Jen: It has that vibe.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And so this summer, I've started assigning people a certain number of "fucks" to put in their reach outs.

Pete: I'm going to have to mark this as 'explicit', by the way, this episode.

Audience: [laughter]

Jen: So sorry, so sorry. Because once I say, "Can you go back and do a draft and put four 'fucks' or 'fucker' or 'fuckin'' in it," the vibe of the whole thing changes. And then, we take out...some of the time, we take out the "fucks". But it goes from academic essay to like, "That thing you made was fucking rad."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "What a fucking genius you are." As opposed to, "Your approach to said thing really made me contemplate the meaning of life."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So I thought it might be worth talking about how to give more “fucks” in your reach outs, so that you sound like you're giving less fucks in your reach outs.

Pete: Fuck yeah. Alright.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: Alright, alright. So, would you say it's almost...like is the prompt designed to make it sound more human? Is that kind of what you're doing?

Jen: Yes, it is.

Pete: Yeah. Okay. So this reminds me of our friend Kirsty Stark, who I bring up every third episode.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Who is, actually...I don't know if you know this. When you first asked me to be your coach just after you took the altMBA, I had a moment of like, "How am I going to respond to this message? 'To whom it may concern, I accept the offer of you to be formally appointed as your coach.'" Like, I wrote this very formal email.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I sent it to Kirsty to get some feedback. She didn't give me the fucking game, but I really like this as an idea.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: But she did say, "Where's Pete in this?"

Jen: Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

Pete: "It doesn't sound like you. It doesn't read like you. I don't hear you in this."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I rewrote it, as if I was...I think the prompt was just like, as if I was having a conversation with you. And it came out completely different, and you just wrote back, "Great."

Jen: [laughing] Right. Right.

Pete: Okay, so that worked. So yeah, I like this. It's like making reach outs/emails/any form of communication more human.

Jen: Yeah. It reminds me....I know I've talked about this on a previous episode. When I first started working on my blog (which P.S., I need to fucking revive), I was having a hard time finding my own voice. I know who I am when I'm speaking extemporaneously. That's like a skill that I have really developed. I do it all day every day. But putting my ideas down on paper and then trying to make it sound like me, that just felt so hard. And I went on this writing retreat, which I know I've talked about in past episodes because I loved it so much.

Pete: Every third episode, yeah.

Jen: But they gave us this assignment to try on, it was like seven or eight different voices that they named as these different voices. And the one that resonated with me was the angry voice, which was so interesting. So I started writing my blog posts, and just as...now I'm connecting the dots here. Just as I've given my clients this, "Give me four 'fucks' in a reach out," I started every blog post with, "Listen, asshole," and then would write the opening line. And then I would take out the "Listen, asshole," but it like got me in the right mind to sound like what I wanted the blog to sound like.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Now, would I go...well...

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: I think, have you...you've used that before?

Jen: Depending on who I'm talking to, I probably wouldn't open a conversation with, "Listen, asshole." But what it helped me do was feel like I could stand my ground around the point I wanted to make. It made me feel confident, assertive, like I had permission.

Pete: Right.

Jen: As opposed to, "Excuse me."

Pete: "So sorry."

Jen: "May I please have thirty seconds of your reading time?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Do you remember any of the other prompts, by the way?

Jen: I have them all written down somewhere.

Pete: Angry voice, is there like upset voice?

Jen: There were lots, I don't remember.

Pete: Okay, alright. Sorry.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I'm just curious for my own process. I feel like that is...it's an interesting thing to try on, to see what might come out that might not come out if you just write as is.

Jen: Well, your voice is very Rule Number 6.

Pete: Right. Say more.

Audience: [laughter]

Jen: So Rule Number 6, "Don't take yourself so gosh darn seriously." I could say the f-word but not-

Pete: Yeah, you've got to say, "Gosh darn."

Jen: -goddamn?

Audience: [laughter]

Jen: [laughing] That's funny.

Pete: "Gosh darn."

Jen: But many of your blog posts have a punch line.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: Like, they try to make people laugh even when they're very pithy and serious. You try to put this like, "Hardy-har-har," to it.

Pete: Yes. I try and add Pete to it.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: Right.

Pete: But I do that after the fact, I think is what's...

Jen: Oh, that's interesting.

Pete: Yeah. So we did an episode recently about Second Drafts, I think it was called...

Jen: Yes.

Pete: ...which I feel like relates to this theme a lot. But often, for me, it comes out as, "To whom it may concern," or, "This is the point I want to make." And then in my edit, I go back and I go, "Okay. How do I add some humor to this? How do I add some flavor to this? How do I add some Pete to this?"

Jen: That's interesting.

Pete: So the reason I asked about your prompts is, I'm wondering if a prompt helps you get it out first. Because it's, for me, it's in the editing where it comes back to being more human.

Jen: Well, so with my clients, they've done a first draft already. So their process is closer to yours than the "Listen, asshole" process.

Pete: I mean, whatever works, right?

Jen: Whatever works.

Pete: And so interestingly, not to toot my own horn but I have just recently had some like lovely feedback from people about how (this is so random) a LinkedIn message that I sent sounded the same as the time they heard me in a podcast or on a Zoom call, like the person they met matched the person in the writing. And I was like, "Oh, that's a compliment I didn't know I needed. But I really liked that compliment, so thank you, random stranger." Because I guess it's quite rare. I mean, we've all read those emails that sound like they come from a robot, or like, they come from a friend of yours and you're like, "My friend doesn't sound like that." So, it's interesting that it's kind of rare.

Jen: Yeah. I'm also thinking about your pitch decks that you make for your clients, which are sometimes for prospecting but are sometimes after the deal is sealed and you're explaining what the process is going to be of working together. You have this very Pete way. You do a lot of work in corporate, and it's very anti-corporate tone.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's very like, "This is going to be something other than what you're so used to getting. And instead, it's going to be light, it's going to be funny, it's going to feel like I'm talking directly to you."

Pete: To a human, yeah.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: That's intentional. My intention of those decks...I think there's some on my website, humanperiscope.com if anyone's curious. My intention is that, or my assertion is, if I can make someone smile, whether they're in corporate or otherwise, then they're more likely to want to work together, or say yes, or reply, or politely decline, they'll more likely reply.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So yeah, that's an interesting example, actually. Those texts are deliberately anti-corporate, you're right.

Jen: Yeah. Okay, I have been working on my bio, like the long-form bio for my website-

Pete: For twelve years. How long?

Jen: Yes.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: I know this pain so well.

Jen: It's so painful. I have hired other people to write it. I've written many versions. I've had my husband look at it. I've had my daughter look at it. I've had, you know, anyone I can think of who can like really give me feedback. But the thing I haven't tried with my bio is, "Listen, asshole."

Pete: Ah. Oh, interesting.

Jen: And I wonder what would happen to it if I gave myself permission to not be so formal in the bio.

Pete: Could I give you another prompt to try too, Jen?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: You could add three "fucks"-

Audience: [laughter and applause]

Pete: -to your bio.

Jen: Well, the thing that I like about it is...I'm looking at the sea of faces out here, seeing how many nods of the head versus shakes of the head I get right now. I feel the pressure to strike a balance between being humble and actually owning all of the...okay, it was a sea of nods, it was a sea of nods...owning the things that I've done. And I think the pressure I've put on myself to strike that balance has actually removed me from my own bio, which is-

Pete: Wild.

Jen: -crazy.

Pete: That's wild, yeah. Huh.

Jen: Okay, so I will publicly commit.

Pete: Very publicly.

Jen: I will include a link to my new bio in the Box O' Goodies, which you get by going to thelongandtheshortpodcast.com and clicking "Box O' Goodies".

Pete: Nice plug. So, okay, this is now making me think of format. Do you find it easier in certain formats to speak/write (you kind of indicated to this, but I'm curious) as Jen than in others? So when you're writing a bio, we've just acknowledged it's difficult. When you're sending a text message, a Slack message, do you think about this at all? Do you find it just comes out more as Jen?

Jen: Oh, that's such an interesting question. Well, I...am questioning my answer.

Audience: [laughter]

Jen: But I feel like I can say pretty confidently, when I am talking, when the words are in real time coming out of my mouth, I am me. Interestingly, the Slack spaces that I'm in are with people I feel very comfortable with and who know me.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I can't think of the last time I toned checked a Slack message.

Pete: Right. So, this is my trick-

Jen: Huh. It's a good one.

Pete: -when I'm sending an email. If I'm sending an email, sometimes when I'm trying to figure out how to put me into this, I'll copy and paste it into Slack as if I'm sending it to you.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: And I type it in Slack. I'm sure it's placebo, however, the confirmation bias for me right now is that the aesthetic of being in Slack, seeing all of the random emojis that one of us has used in the previous messages, it immediately makes it feel more casual, which is more Pete. And I just find it so much easier.

Jen: Huh. Wow.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I will be trying that out.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Thank you very much.

Pete: Whereas the story most corporates, corporates in particular, tell themselves is when you...or like, Outlook or Gmail looks a certain way. And when you open a new email, it looks a certain way. There's a BCC, there's a CC, there's a To, there's a subject line, like it's so the same.

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And it's like, you see that signal and so you go, "To whom it may concern, I am a robot emailing you this particular request," like it just happens. And I know like, you know, people have written about semiotics and signals before, and how they influence the way we behave and interact and show up and communicate. So, I just wonder if that may be a little hack. I don't think I would do it as a text message, but I would definitely do it as a Slack message.

Jen: That's really interesting. I'm reminded right now that I had essentially like a pitch I had to send out to a prospective client, and I was having so much trouble with it. So what I did was, I went over to Canva. I don't know how many of you use Canva...I love it.

Pete: The girl loves Canva.

Jen: I love it. I really do. I find it so fun to play around with. And I picked someone else's media kit, and I just dropped my stuff into it, and I wrote in the Canva app as opposed to writing in a Word doc. I just filled it all out and then I was able to send it, which sounds like what you're talking about...that putting yourself in the environment, whether it's like the real environment or the virtual environment, where you will show up the way you want to is like a little life hack.

Pete: Yeah. Yes.

Jen: Huh.

Pete: So this is reminding me of the book Steal Like an Artist, obviously, by Austin Kleon, which we'll put in the Box O' Goodies. Great book. And in it, he basically asserts, "There's no new ideas, there's just iterations of existing ideas. And so we, as artists or creatives or leaders, we should lean on that and borrow from those that have come before us," which I think is what you just sort of alluded to, especially in Canva when there's an existing template that we can borrow and we can lean on. You also reminded me, when it goes back to bios, one way I've tried to write a bio is copy and paste someone else's bio that I really like, and then just replace their name with mine, and then try and replace their accomplishments with mine. And it's had mixed success.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: But I can think of one example that was actually really useful, and I still use it to this day.

Jen: Huh.

Pete: This like one little paragraph, I still use.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I borrowed it from...oh, I can't even remember...someone's bio.

Jen: Yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting. You know, it's just making me think of...one of the reasons that perhaps my website that's been under construction for twelve months is still under construction is because of that "Ipsolum Dolum" whatever Latin they put in the template.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And then if you go over to Canva, it's actually full sentences and like real things to inspire your own words.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Vote Canva!

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: An Australian company, by the way.

Jen: Oh, really?

Pete: Yeah, Australian founded. I think it was our only or our first unicorn, so there you go.

Jen: Well, Pete, what do you make of it?

Pete: Well, I guess we need to give more fucks.

Audience: [laughter]

Pete: You know, whether it's adding a "fuck", or giving a "fuck", or starting an email or a blog post or a proposal with a prompt like, "Listen, asshole", or borrowing from those that have come before us, like all of these are just nifty tools/hacks so that we can write in a way that is more human, so that we can connect in a way that is more human, and ultimately, so we can write in a way that is truer to who we are.

Jen: Fuck yes.

Audience: [laughter and applause]

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.