The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 206 - Advice

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I was asked a question a couple days ago and I'd like to ask for your advice on it, which then creates this whole meta experience because the question was, "What advice would you have for your younger self," which I feel like is a pretty commonly asked question.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: So I have the question for you, on, how do you think about advice? Like, I would like your advice on how to think about advice, is what I'm saying.

Jen: Alright, meta indeed. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So a few things happened when I was asked this question. One is, I was obviously forced to answer, "What advice would I give to my younger self?" And then in the process of answering it, I started to wonder, "Is this helpful to anyone else other than me? Like, you know, advice for my younger self, is that relevant to advice to other people?" And then I got stuck on this whole track of, "When is advice helpful? What is advice? Versus, when is a coaching question more helpful? Or a probing question, or a thought provoking question more helpful?" Which obviously, you and I do a lot of with each other, but also with our clients. And then, you know, maybe the third layer of this is like opinion. Like, what is the difference between opinion and advice and coaching? And I feel like there's some juicy differences between the three, and I'm sure you have some opinions, advice, and questions for me.

Jen: Well, just right out of the gate, I had this experience last week where a client came to me for advice about how to gain some momentum in a certain direction. And my opinion was that that direction was not the right one. So I voiced my opinion, and then I explained that my opinion was irrelevant. But I felt that they would want to know my opinion, because they were seeking me out as the coach who had some area of expertise that they wanted to tap into. So I had to say, "You know, in my 'expert' opinion, I would go down a different path. But if this is the path you want to go down, I completely support you and here is my advice about what you might do. Do that, and then come to me and we can coach through it." So, we did all three-

Pete: Wow, I love that so much.

Jen: -at once.

Pete: That's such a good example. So then to, I guess to ask the obvious question, you see a distinction between the three then? Like, an opinion versus an advice...

Jen: Oh, definitely.

Pete: ...yeah, versus a question.

Jen: Absolutely.

Pete: Yeah. Good. Okay, great. Me too. Me too. Me too. So then, I wonder...I mean, that's such a perfect example of how you use all three. I sometimes struggle with knowing which one to step into. And I think, I actually got...I was told this yesterday via a very generous friend of mine, who said, "You don't always have to ask a coaching question. Like, people really value when you give your opinion." And I think I usually default too much to probably asking a question. And that comes from, you know, this whole idea that I have that like the person that's asking me for thoughts or ideas or whatever, the client or just a friend, they probably already know what it is they want to do, they probably already have the answer. And so, I default too much to like, "I'll ask a question and help them get to where they're already going." But sometimes...and I've been told this many times, this is probably feedback I need to listen to more often. So, Pete, listen. Is, someone's like, "No, I just want you to give me your opinion," or, "No, I just really need some advice."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: So I guess all of that to say, how do you think about the difference or the definition of advice and opinion? How are they different?

Jen: Well, I think opinion is...I mean, maybe this is too on the nose...opinion is entirely subjective. Like, my opinion is completely my point of view, based on my experience and what I believe.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But my advice takes in to account some facts, as opposed to just my opinions. So like, here's an example. I have clients come to me all the time for help negotiating their contracts. My clients, especially those who are working without representation and who have to negotiate their own contracts, will bring their contracts to me and say, "How do you think this looks? What could I ask for? What should I do?" So I might say, "Well, my opinion is that this contract is a piece of crap, and you should say no to the whole thing and walk away. But I understand that's not what you want to do. What you want to do is get a better deal out of this, so here's my advice based on the facts that I know about this particular employer, some of the precedent that has been set with them before, some of the things I've had clients successfully negotiate for before. This is my advice for what to ask for and what is realistic, but my opinion is that the whole thing is a piece of crap."

Pete: I love that. That's a perfect example. Advice takes into account the reality or the facts of the given circumstances. There's almost a, you know, in that example you mentioned, there's like a layer of empathy that comes with advice, which is not necessarily present with an opinion.

Jen: Right. Well, when giving advice, at least in that scenario, the client's opinion is more important than mine.

Pete: Right. Right, right, right, right, right.

Jen: I mean, like, what do they want? What do they think? Okay, well, based on what you want and what you think, this is how I might advise you.

Pete: Yeah, there's that layer of empathy. Interesting, interesting, interesting.

Jen: And then the next part, the coaching part is, well, I say, "Well, my advice is ask them to give you a plus 10% and these other little details," and then I see the client freeze up and they get scared, and so then I end up coaching them through the fear so they can actually do the thing they want to do.

Pete: Wow, you're a pro at doing all three at once. I'm impressed. I'm impressed.

Jen: I've been wearing these hats for a while now, Peter.

Pete: Yeah. So I feel like this rhymes with or this is similar to a question I often get asked in a, you know, in a Q&A at the end of a keynote for example, I'm often asked the question of, "What's the difference between a mentor and a coach?" I'm sure you've been asked this question before. And my response to that, my perspective on that, my opinion on that, I guess, is that a mentor tends to be someone who has done the thing that you're hoping to do or been in the position you're hoping to be in, and will then tell you, I guess, give you advice on how they approached it and how you might approach it as a result of that. It's more of a, "Here is some advice from someone who's done the thing that you're hoping to do." Versus a coach, which may have done the thing you want to do but they don't take that posture. They take that posture of asking questions, holding space, being curious, helping that person figure out for themselves what their next steps might need to be. So that, I think...I guess mentorship, in that sense, sits a lot more in the advice/opinion side of things. Do you agree? Am I making sense?

Jen: Yes. I think a mentor is speaking from their own personal experience and advising based on their experience, their deep domain knowledge, all of the life that they have lived ahead of you that has given them perspective that you might not yet have. And I think my role as a coach...and we, you and I coach people on different things. You are a very real skills coach. You are coaching people using the real skills of empathy, and leadership, etc. And I do both real skills and hard skills.

Pete: Yeah. Very tactical. Yeah, yeah.

Jen: So yeah, it's a little different. But when I'm wearing my coaching hat, I know my responsibility is to help the client make good on what they already have, like everything that is within them, whether it is their hard skill set or whether it is their real skill set. I'm not teaching them when I'm coaching. I'm not teaching them how to do this new thing. I'm helping them really fulfill their potential.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then sometimes I've got to put the teaching hat on, which is a whole other story.

Pete: Right. That's actually...it's funny, you reminded me, we did an episode once upon a time (I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies) called Coaching and Teaching. We actually had a jingle, [singing] "Coaching and teaching."

Jen: [singing] "Coaching and teaching. Coaching and teaching."

Pete: Oh dear...we'll leave that in. We were talking about the distinction between, "How do you, when you're running a workshop or working with a client one on one or, you know, teaching a course or working on a course, how do you straddle the line of coach versus teacher, and what are the skills required to do those two different roles?" And I just, I think that's, yeah, you bring up teaching because I guess that's almost another arm to this as well.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It's like advice, opinion, teaching, coaching, and mentorship, they're all similar but have distinct characteristics or flavors, I guess.

Jen: Yes, they are definitely close cousins.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: You know, I think it's important to also look at this from...like, we're talking about what hats we are intentionally placing on our heads. And I think it's also helpful to look at this from the client perspective. I mean, we've both been coached before and mentored before and taught before.

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: So as the client or as the student, it's helpful to be able to ask the person wearing the hats to wear a specific hat.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So, "I would really love your opinion on this," versus, "I could really use your advice. I know where I want to go. I'd like your advice for how to get there, even if your opinion is different than mine about whether or not this is a good fit."

Pete: Yeah. Yes, yes. Oh, I love that. It's such a powerful reminder. The same is true when asking for feedback, I think. You know?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Like, what type of feedback are you seeking? Are you seeking...you know, if you like the book Thanks For the Feedback, which I know you and I do, they talk about like, "Are you seeking appreciation? Are you seeking coaching? Or are you seeking evaluation?" And actually getting clear on, "Am I seeking opinion? Am I seeking advice? Am I seeking some coaching? Am I seeking some mentorship," makes it so much easier for the person on the other side.

Jen: Yes, because then you can actually be helpful to them, instead of harmful. Because if someone is seeking your advice and you only offer your opinion, that could actually be devastating in certain circumstances.

Pete: Right. Yes. This is where I've noticed I have a tendency, like I mentioned, to lean too much towards coaching sometimes, because it's almost like I haven't given myself but also the person on the other side sometimes hasn't given me permission to add your opinion or your advice. And often, I have an opinion or some advice. I just am like almost intentionally not going there, because I'm trying to coach the person. But I had an example yesterday, literally yesterday, where the person I was talking to was like, "Could you just share with me your advice? Because I think you don't do that enough. And I really want to hear what actual advice you have, as opposed to trying to ask me a generous question to help me get there myself...which I appreciate, but I also just want your advice. "

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I was like, "Oh, okay. Here is my advice." Like, it makes it so much easier.

Jen: You know, Drew Wutke, who wrote the theme music to our podcast, Drew and I teach this nine week class together called Preparing a Role. And we tell our students at the beginning of the session, "We won't offer our opinion until week five."

Pete: Oh, wow.

Jen: "So you should ask us all of the questions you want our opinion on. Like, bank them and answer as many of them for yourself as you can. And then once we've gotten past the halfway point, we'll offer some opinions...not all of our opinions, but some."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So, they know that our opinion is coming...

Pete: Yes.

Jen: ...but just not right out of the gate.

Pete: Yeah. I think the way that we've talked about, and you've certainly talked about opinions to this point too, is really helpful to think about those unsolicited opinions you sometimes get from time to time. The bad reviews, where we did an episode on bad reviews, when you get a one-star review on Apple podcasts because someone thinks your podcast is not very good. There is a useful, I think, reminder here, for me at least, in that, "Oh, okay. That is their opinion. And that is true for them. Like, they have that opinion and so that is their truth...that's fine. It doesn't mean I need to take it on as advice, or coaching, or some form of mentorship. I can choose to see that as what it is, which is someone's opinion, and then let it go."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So much easier said than done.

Jen: So much easier said than done, but such an important reminder to practice that whenever possible. And sometimes someone has an opinion that you might initially not agree with, and when you do really sort through it in your own mind, you might come out on the other side in agreement, and then sometimes you're like, "Hmm, that person's opinion is harmful to me, or irrelevant to the progress I want to make. And I've just got to light it on fire."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, that opinion, to me, highlights that this is not for them. And that's okay. It doesn't have to be for them.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Like, you don't want to take it...I mean, we've talked about this many, many times. You don't want to necessarily take someone's opinion, let alone someone's advice, for whom the thing that you're doing is not even for. So if we have created a podcast for a certain type of curious individual or leader or changemaker, and someone who doesn't fit that bill comes along with an opinion, it would be crazy for us to take their opinion as advice and change a bunch of stuff, because we never intended to make the podcast for them.

Jen: Okay. This is, I think, a really interesting point worth like peeling back another layer on, is when someone's opinion really does matter to you or when their opinion really holds value for you, how can you turn that opinion into advice? Because just someone stating their opinion doesn't really get you anywhere.

Pete: Yes. Yes.

Jen: But it might be that you have to figure out how to turn it into advice for yourself, like self-prescribe some advice there. Or maybe there are some follow up questions for the person who asserted their opinion to help get you moving in a different direction.

Pete: Yeah. Yes. It's a really important distinction, when I think about...one of the challenges I hear a lot from executives within companies that I spend a bunch of time working with is they have to be really careful about when they share an idea or an opinion, because often they might have a really, you know, implementable team that then goes and takes that opinion as like, "We need to go build this thing, because that was Jen's opinion as the managing director or the CEO." And so often, I will hear them say, "I have to hold back certain opinions or make sure I remind people, 'This is just an opinion. We don't need to take this as the new policy moving forward.'" And I find senior executives, in particular, can get into a lot of sticky situations when people take their opinion as advice, when actually it's, "I'm literally just sharing my opinion here." And then that like feeds into, you know, one of the ideas I think we've talked about that Amazon implements, which is around disagreeing and committing.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: So an executive can say, "My opinion is I disagree with this project. However, I'm willing to commit, so don't take my opinion as advice."

Jen: Right. Right. And then when you are in a position where you want to take the opinion as advice, I'm trying to come up with what would be a good question to ask. And I really think it might be as simple as, "What might I be able to do about that?" Like, okay, I don't know if I've ever told this story on the podcast, but I had a friend who was like, "Why aren't you writing a book? You have a book in you, you need to write a book." And so I thought for a long time, and then I went back to them and I was like, "I have my idea for the book." And I explained the whole idea. And they were like, "I don't think that's good enough." So, that was their opinion. And then I said, "So what do I do about that?" And they said, "You've got to come up with a big idea that fits on a cocktail napkin."

Pete: Nice. There's the advice.

Jen: And I was like, "Oh, okay, great. So I have too many ideas. Like, it doesn't fit on the little square of paper. I need to distill this down into one juicy nugget, as opposed to lots and lots of sort of disparate ideas." That was really helpful advice, but it started with the opinion of like, "That's just not good enough."

Pete: I feel like that's actually a really profound question. "What do I do about that?" Because, my gosh, the world is not short of opinions at the moment.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And how often is it that someone goes to the effort of not only having an opinion, but then having advice on what to do about it? So to take someone's opinion and then ask them, "Okay, like, maybe I value your opinion. So what do I do about that," it forces them to actually think about a solution or a way forward or a path to navigating said complex idea, rather than just sprouting opinions left and right.

Jen: Right. And I think it also pings off of something we talk about a lot, which is knowing what is in your control and what is out of your control. Because another opinion that has come in my direction, when I was a working actor, was there were some directors who would say, "Oh, I really like you, but you're too short for the role." Okay, that's their opinion. I'm sure people of all heights have been mothers and lovers and friends, and like, "Okay, fine. That's their opinion. Well, what can I do about that? Absolutely frickin' nothing. Out of my control, so I have to release that."

Pete: Yes. Yes. Yes. Such a good example. Alright, I've found your advice and opinions and mentorship and coaching very helpful, Jen.

Jen: I really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like in talking through it, I learned a lot.

Pete: Yes, likewise. It feels like one of those episodes that was selfish and indulgent, in that I'm thinking more and more about the importance of A., getting clearer in the distinction between all the things that we've talked about. But then B., trying to help people get clear on knowing what to ask for so that you can meet them there, and then doing the same yourself. And then, I guess, C., the third thing is, yeah, that really profound moment of helping people or helping yourself turn someone's opinion into advice, within the right context when that is appropriate. That feels super rich.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.