The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 213 - Practice/Project

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: In many previous episodes, we have discussed practices. And on many previous episodes, we have discussed projects. But what we haven't necessarily discussed, at least as a full episode, is turning practices into projects or turning projects into practices.

Pete: Oof, You're right, we have not. I thought you were going to go for the Venn diagram, which, we love a Venn diagram but this is slightly different.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, projects and practices...tell me more, Jen Waldman.

Jen: Well, the reason this is coming up is I recently wrapped my summer coaching program. And at the end, I do these one-on-one coachings with everyone to make sure that we've tied things up in a pretty bow, but more importantly, that we have moved our goalpost from, "Closing out this coaching program," to, "What are we working on for the next three months, six months, etc.?" And I found myself having the same conversation but from two different angles, over and over again, where a client would say that over the summer they had created a practice and that they were going to continue with the practice. But as they described the practice to me, I realized that what they were actually talking about was completing a project.

Pete: Interesting.

Jen: And so, I would chime in and say, "Actually, that sounds like a project. And when that is done, you've got to let that go and figure out which pieces of that can actually turn into the practice. We need to turn the project into the practice." Or sometimes, I would have someone say, "You know, I'm working toward this project," and then they would describe it. And I'd say, "Actually, that sounds more like what you're crafting for yourself is a practice. We need to turn this project into a practice." So, these two words just kept showing up in different ways. I also found it fascinating that most people were like, "Oh, thank goodness. I'm so relieved."

Pete: Oh, really?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Ah, that's funny. That feels, yeah, that feels rich. That's hilarious. I'm curious, in your mind, what are the characteristics of each? What makes them different, both practices and projects?

Jen: Well, a project has a clear finish line.

Pete: Uh-huh.

Jen: At some point, it can be called complete. Whereas, a practice goes on and on and on. And for some people, for different personality types, naming something a project when actually what you're trying to do is create a practice is helpful for the way you think about things, and vice versa. Like for me, for example, I love a deadline. I love a project. I love the finish line. So, I have certain things that really are a practice...like meditation, I'm not trying to cross any finish line there. But I actually have to put meditation in my calendar, or I won't do it because there's no finish line. Whereas, every day I read, every single day. And I never have to put that in my calendar, because it comes with lots of little projects or goals in the form of a book. So when the book is done, I've completed that project. And then, I move on to the next book. And so, I never have to remind myself to read because I'm always aware of where the end is.

Pete: Interesting. So do you not have a reading practice, though?

Jen: I do.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But it doesn't feel like a practice to me.

Pete: Yeah, interesting.

Jen: Which is why I love doing it so much.

Pete: The way that we frame things to help ourselves get ourselves out of our own way, it sounds like.

Jen: Exactly. And for some people, being able to talk about a project in terms of how it is contributing to a long infinite practice in their life makes them more likely to feel ambitious about the project. So it's just, it's such an interesting framing device.

Pete: Yeah. I'm thinking of ways when or examples when I like framing things as practices, versus when I like, just personally when I like framing things as projects. Like I think at one point I mentioned on this podcast, probably over a year ago, that I was starting a writing practice...or maybe not starting, I've always had a writing practice in terms of my blog, but trying to get better at doing a daily writing practice.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I think one of the potential outputs that we talked about was that, was like, "Maybe it'll end up one day, all these words, maybe they'll one day end up in a book, and that will become a project." But the thought of, "You're writing a book, as a project," I'd found overwhelming. So for me, I'd framed it as a writing practice, which was far more palatable. Interesting. Interesting, interesting.

Jen: Yeah, that is so fascinating. Okay, here's another example. I've mentioned this on the show before, that I have a practice of listening to a podcast on my commute to work. This is when I take the subway. Now, sometimes I ride my scooter. So if I'm riding the scooter, I'm not listening to anything. Don't worry, friends, I'm not distracted riding. But if I'm on the subway, I have this practice of listening. But then, I give myself this little mini project right after I get off the subway. Which is, I have from the time I get above ground to the time I put my keys in the door at the studio to figure out how I'm going to connect the thing I just heard to the class I'm about to teach or the coaching I'm about to do.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah, interesting.

Jen: These little finish lines.

Pete: Yeah. Little finish lines, I like. I like. I'm just still so fascinated by...I hear, for example, Dax Shepard has talked about on his podcast Armchair Expert with Monica Padman, he's talked about his battle with alcoholism. And how, in order to be sober, if, for him, if he frames it as, "I need to be sober forever. I can never drink again," it's entirely overwhelming and he's like, "I can't possibly commit to that." But instead, he's like, "Oh, I just don't have to have a drink today. I can go one day without a drink." And over time, it builds up and builds up, and years and years and years later, he's still sober. So like, it's almost like the project of getting through the day, which builds into the practice over time. Like I'm just, I'm super fascinated by how these two relate to each other and how sometimes a practice feels overwhelming, like in that example, but then other times, in like the book example I was mentioning, the practice actually felt easier. Because, I don't know, for me there was like a playfulness with the word "practice". Like, I think about sports practice. You know, when I grew up, I played every single sport you could possibly imagine. I was that kid who just wanted to play all the sports. And often times, the funnest part for me was the practice, not actually the game day. And it was because it was like fun and light, and we're just like mucking around and there's no consequences, almost, with a practice. So I'm curious about like whether that, for me personally but also others, is that part of it? Practices can feel playful because there's no consequences, whereas projects can feel hard or scary because it's like the consequence of, "Once I ship this, once I finish this, what's going to happen? Is it going to be received well? Is it going to go well? Is it going to fail?" So, all of those things. But then, like we keep going back and forward, I frame things as projects all the time, because that's how I like to think about certain other things. So, wild.

Jen: So, I had this conversation with one of my clients (and here's another "p" word to throw in the mix: progress) who is making so much progress toward this very specific goal. And in our meeting, I was like, "So what are you working on for Q4?" And she said, "Well, I've really created this practice over the summer of self-taping," this is an acting term for video recording material, usually for an audition. So she said, "I've really created this practice of self-taping, and I just want to, you know, go through every song in my repertoire and keep going. I'm just going to keep this self-taping practice going." And I was like, "Huh. Well, if we want this practice to lead to progress, I think we need to name this as a project. We need to know when you have enough songs in the can, so that we can focus the self-tape practice on something other than just getting songs you once learned on tape. Like we have to figure out, how do we raise the bar on this? If it's going to be a practice, you want to keep getting better and better and making progress. Let's just say that once you've got like these six songs in the can, that project is over. The self-taping continues, but we're going to raise the bar to this next level." So it was just, it felt like she was about to get on a hamster wheel with the way the practice was being framed.

Pete: Interesting.

Jen: So we just had to say, "In honor of progress, we shall projectify this practice."

Pete: Okay, I have another "p" word that I think relates to what you just said.

Jen: Okay, here we go.

Pete: Oh dear. So, I think what you described to me there feels like a clarity in the purpose of the practice.

Jen: Yep. Precisely.

Pete: I'm being a little whimsical, but I'm also serious. Because I was going to say, what was clear in that example is she was clear on what it was for, i.e. progress was part of the point of the thing that she wanted to do, the practice. And so this idea of, "What's the purpose of the practice? What's the purpose of the thing we're doing," I think becomes a really important consideration. Because if the purpose is to just build the muscle of doing a thing and it doesn't matter if you get better or worse...like my morning pages practice isn't something I'm trying to get better at, necessarily. The purpose of it is to clear my mind in the morning. And so, that is a practice. It's not necessarily something I'm monitoring progress for. It's not something I'm trying to get better at. It's just something that I choose to do because of the benefit, based on what I define as the purpose. So, I feel like that's an important consideration. Which, I think dovetails...this whole thing is like reminding me a lot of the concept of finite versus infinite games, which James Carse has written about, Simon Sinek has written about, many others have written about. Where, you know, a finite game is kind of like a project, right? It has an end state.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Whereas, as an infinite game is kind of like a practice, in that you play the game for the game's sake, you do the practice for the practice's sake.

Jen: Yeah. All these "p" words are reminding me of an episode we recorded once upon a time...

Pete: Did it start with "p"?

Jen: It was Episode #115...do you remember this, called The Five P's?

Pete: Oh my gosh...vaguely.

Jen: Okay. So I offered you up five words that started with "p" and asked you to put them in order of importance, and we had different orders. And the five words were: priorities, plans, projects, purpose, passion. But maybe this like the shadow title of today's episode, is The Sixth P: Practice.

Pete: Yes, The Sixth P. Oh my gosh.

Jen: I'm going to drop a link to The Five P's in the Box O' Goodies.

Pete: Wild. Wild, wild, wild. Yeah. And so, I guess the other thing that is just worth me saying out loud but I feel like it's pretty evident in this episode, is, neither is right or wrong. It's kind of just, how do we use them to help ourselves where it makes sense? So is it that you want to develop a new practice? Or is it that you want to start a new project, or try and complete a project? And for me, I think this is where that purpose what's it for kind of question comes in, is like, "What am I hoping to achieve with this thing?" Or, "What does success look like for this thing?" And if the answer to that is more suited to a practice, I think that's a great thing. And if the answer to that is more suited to a project, that's a great thing. But it's like, let's not confuse the two.

Jen: Yeah. You know, I use Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies framework a lot. I love that framework. And when she talks about that, she over and over again says, "The purpose of learning your tendency is not to try to change it or judge it, but to understand how you operate so that you can lean into it and make your life easier for yourself." And I think that is so similar to what you're saying here, about, "It's not that I'm right or wrong by labeling something a project if it is actually a practice. It's that if my tendency is to fire up my ambition when something is called a project, I might be more successful in that pursuit," (there's another "p" word), "...if I call something a project, even though what I'm trying to do is instill a practice."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: That, "I'm leaning into my own tendency. I'm leaning into the way my brain pieces things together."

Pete: Right. Right. The other thing you're sparking in me is like, how do I use this distinction to my advantage? So, if a listener out there has an idea for a project that they would love to complete at some point in their life...so like, writing a book is a pretty easy example. If you are thinking, "I'd like to write a book someday," or, "I'd like to write a book in the next two years or three years," if that is a project you have on your want-to-do list, then I actually think it would benefit you to start a writing practice.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So that you get better, perhaps, or just practice the art of what feels like bashing your head against the wall, i.e. mashing a keyboard and writing. You know? Like otherwise, when you start the project, "Oh, now I'm going to sit down and write that book," but I haven't actually flexed that muscle, so it's going to be harder for me when I finally start the project. So I'm like looking for, what are the meta skills that we want to develop practices in that will make everything else easier? I guess an example is also this podcast, right?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Like we've said many times before, part of the benefit of this podcast for us personally is it's a practice in speaking extemporaneously, it's a practice of asking each other questions, of listening better, of having to make assertions. Like this podcast is a practice that enables other projects that we do, I think, to be better. And I just wonder how else listeners might be able to use that to their advantage.

Jen: Ooh, this just brought up another thing for me, which is how sometimes taking something that feels high risk or high stakes and just rolling it in as part of a practice can really lower the stakes. For example, I work with a lot of people on their reach out skills, on how to actually make a meaningful connection with another person. And if they think about each reach out as a project, it becomes too much. It's just too high stakes. It's too scary. But if we say we're creating a reach out practice, and just every day, you're reaching out to someone, it doesn't feel like this big, overwhelming, scary goblin in the room.

Pete: Right. Right. Now I know it doesn't start with "p", but I guess the other word that comes to mind when you say that is "experimenting".

Jen: Ex-perimenting.

Pete: Ex-perimenting, yes, there's a "p" in there. Because I think, you know, a practice can be framed as an experiment. I've always liked the idea of framing things as experiments, because it feels like no matter what happens, I learned something and that was the point. Like, "I'll just try this reach out and see what happens, and then I'll learn something." And that, to me, makes it less scary or less like attached to success or a certain outcome that I'm seeking. So, ex-periments as well.

Jen: Wow, there have been a lot of "p" words thrown around today. And I'm pleased Peter, that this podcast was pleasant and produced possible e-piphanies for peo-ple.

Pete: Oh, bravo, bravo. That is The Long and The Short Of It.