The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 218 - Reassurance

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: You know that moment after every single episode that we record, where we turn to one another and go, "Do you think that was an episode? Is that an episode?"

Jen: Yeah, pretty familiar with that.

Pete: It's only 200+ times we've done it. I have been thinking a bit about that moment across many aspects of my life, and whether that counts as reassurance, and what reassurance is, whether we need it, why it's important. And I just, I feel like I need you to help me untangle myself from the web of reassurance.

Jen: Well, let me reassure you, I'm ready for the untangling. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I see what you did there. That was very clever. So to tee this up, I'll share a story in a second, but I'm particularly curious about reassurance, encouragement, and feedback. Are they all the same thing? Am I conflating one with the other? Is one more important than the other? ...And all of those things. So there's a few conflicting thoughts in my head. One is, Seth Godin (who you and I mention a lot on this podcast, he's the reason we met, he's written 20+ bestsellers), one of his rants or riffs...he calls it a rant sometimes...is that reassurance is futile and we shouldn't seek it out. We shouldn't want it because it's never enough. And so, the moment we give in to the temptation to seek reassurance, we basically head down a never ending path that will never end up anywhere because we always need more reassurance. We always need more, we always need more. There's never enough. I think that's the crux of his argument about reassurance. And I've had a few experiences recently where I've really found myself, I think, craving reassurance. But now I'm wondering, is that a bad thing? Am I doing the wrong thing? Or am I actually seeking encouragement? But isn't it all just feedback anyway? So like, that's kind of the swirly context. Am I making sense?

Jen: Yeah. It's funny, because I had that exact same thought. Isn't it all feedback anyway? Reassurance is feedback of some sort. But what's so interesting, as you're bringing this up, my mind went immediately to very specific, very urgent circumstances that I find myself in with my clients very often. And I'm curious about reassurance in less urgent circumstances. So I actually think, in urgent circumstances, reassurance is very helpful.

Pete: Ooh, okay. I'm curious about that distinction.

Jen: So like, I will have a client frequently send me a text message a couple minutes before they're about to walk into a very important audition room, and sort of need the reassurance that this risk they intend to take is worth taking, or that this piece of material that they have chosen is the right piece, or the thing that they know that they want to bring up with the director is the right thing to bring up. At that point, reassurance is a very important tool of permission. But the question is, who are they seeking the reassurance from? In this case, it is the person who they worked with to prepare for this experience, so my reassurance actually matters to them. But if they were to ask someone outside of the context, I don't know, a parent, a spouse, a friend who didn't fully understand what was happening there, reassurance doesn't really help that much.

Pete: Oh, interesting. I love that example. Yeah, so reassurance can be helpful in the right context is what I'm hearing you say.

Jen: And from the right person, or people.

Pete: Yes. From the right people in the right context, we are potentially okay with reassurance. I like that. I think the thing that comes to mind for me when you say urgent versus non-urgent...and I could see where this is a trap, and I'm totally happy to call myself out and share many examples of this, is where we convince ourselves it's urgent but it's actually not urgent.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So, I had this experience three days ago. And this is a common experience for, like I mentioned, you and I do this at the end of every episode. But I gave a keynote three days ago, which I delivered and was happy with and was comfortable with in the moment, and it was ninety minutes long and there was thirty minutes of Q&A, I answered all the questions. I was like, "Ah, I think that went quite well." And like without even consciously thinking about it, I got offstage, I went and I sat down in the table that I was sitting, and the lady who I'd been working with who arranged the keynote, arranged for me to be a guest speaker, was sitting next to me. And I turned to her (again, like without a conscious thought) and I was like, "How do you think that went?" I feel like, on reflection, I immediately wanted reassurance. I immediately wanted someone to say, "That was great. You did a great job. Thank you. We're happy with how that went." And that's one example of so many that I have. Like, I finished a workshop on Zoom, and you close Zoom and the thing I always grapple with, the tension I always experience is like, "How did that go? Was that good? Was that bad? Do I send them an email? Are they going to give me some feedback? Are they going to be some reassurance?" And so this is where I've just been observing this, like in myself, is, "What am I actually seeking? Is it healthy to be seeking it? Or am I just convincing myself that I need that as feedback, but actually, I'm seeking a never ending pit of reassurance?"

Jen: Well, wow, this is really...this is really opening up for me in many different directions. So the thing that I heard in that story was that you needed reassurance after the fact, which I do believe is futile.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: Because there's nothing you can do to go backwards.

Pete: Right, it's done.

Jen: Right. It's done.

Pete: Oh, that's true.

Jen: So let me take this keynote idea and look at it from like different reassurance points, and which ones are helpful and which ones aren't. So like, if you called me and were like, "Jen, I'm about to go onstage and try out this new story in a keynote. Tell me I am not crazy to do this." I'd be like, "Pete, let me reassure you, you absolutely should go out there and try this new story. Yes." That is reassurance that, again, is a tool of permission. But if you called me five minutes before your keynote and said, "Should I even be a keynote speaker?"

Pete: I feel called out.

Jen: That kind of reassurance is not going to be helpful to you, because it's so unspecific in what you're actually needing. Like, one is...it's funny, because I was saying urgent and not urgent earlier, but I'm realizing that it's like specific versus general.

Pete: Yeah. This is where I go, "Is one actually encouragement? And that's different." Or am I overthinking this? Very possible. Now I'm seeking reassurance.

Jen: Yeah, you are. But encouragement is a wonderful thing. We need people to encourage us. And we need to be encouragers of other people. I don't think there's anything wrong in seeking encouragement. That being said, when the only encouragement is external, and you haven't been able to internalize it and encourage yourself, that's when you can be in the constant search for it for the rest of your life and never feel like it is enough.

Pete: Right. This is, I think, where you're getting to the crux of it. Is, one thing that you've raised that's hitting me between the eyes is when it's after the fact and there's nothing you can do to change what just happened, it is futile in the sense that you need to be able to stand on your own two feet and think to yourself, "Did I do the thing that I was paid to do? Did I do the thing that I was brought in to do," in the keynote example, "Did I deliver the content, the stories, the breakouts in the way that I had envisaged?" The answer was yes. And so, that should be all the reassurance I need. I shouldn't need someone to validate that for me. Interesting. Alright, now this...I feel like recently, you joked about an episode where you were lying on the therapist's couch. I feel like now it's my turn on the therapist's couch.

Jen: Right. People tend to like these "Jen and Pete go to therapy" episodes.

Pete: It's probably a sub-podcast we should start. So, I might be making this up...I don't think I am. I'm going to do my best to find a reference and put it in the Box O' Goodies. But I'm certain I've heard Oprah share some version of a story that relates to this, where she says the most common question that she got...I think she said from like every single guest except for maybe one or two people...the moment the cameras go off when she was doing the Oprah show, the guest would look over and go, "Was that okay," or, "How did I go?"

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And they would seek that reassurance from Oprah, to be like, "Was that what you wanted? Like, let me get some reassurance that everything went to plan."

Jen: That is fascinating.

Pete: Yeah, a fascinating example of like wanting the reassurance. You know, I guess maybe the fact that it's Oprah makes it a little bit different.

Jen: Well, it's just making me laugh because at my studio, every time someone finishes working...to the point where it's like a running joke that, "Oh, we know what Jen's going to say,"...the first words out of my mouth every time are, "How was that?" Because I don't want to tell them how I thought it was, I want them to be able to assess for themselves without needing my opinion first. "Well, this is what I thought of my own work." So, I think that is interesting in relationship to the Oprah thing. And then the other thing I'm thinking of, at my studio, we have this closing ritual at the end of every work session. So it does not matter if it was the best work you've ever done in your life or the most embarrassing, messy, "I can't believe I just did that" work you've done in your life, you close your session the same way, regardless. Which is, I ask people to stand in front of the group, lead us in a group breath, and make eye contact with everybody in the room, and then they take their seat. So I say, "Breathe with and see everyone before you have a seat," and what that does is it gives them a way to stand in the work they've done and just own, "This is what I did."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So it might have been great and it might have been terrible, but this is what I did and I own the work that I did...which I just think is such an important thing. And let me tell you, it is a muscle. It is a mental muscle that requires constant strength training.

Pete: Yeah, I'm very called out. I feel like I need to start strengthening said muscle. I've been in a class where you ask this question every time.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: "How was that?" Three simple words that actually have so much profound wisdom beneath them. Like you said, it's giving people a chance to almost give themselves feedback. Maybe that's reassurance, maybe that's, "Ah, I didn't quite do it the way I wanted to, but I'm acknowledging that I'm not relying on someone else telling me that it was great or it wasn't great until I then have an opinion on it." Like you're giving yourself feedback on your process, not giving your power over to someone else to tell you how that process was, if that makes sense, which feels so empowering and important.

Jen: And sometimes people legitimately, with so much honesty, are like, "I have no idea."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Which, that is not an invitation for me to tell them how it was. That's an invitation to help them come up with some sort of a way to think about their own work.

Pete: Yeah. Shout out to all my people-pleasing friends who just want the people that they serve to just like them.

Jen: I know. Well, it would be so great if we just went through our lives and everybody told us everything we did was great and we shouldn't worry about anything all the time. But then, we wouldn't be growing honestly. '

Pete: It's true. It's true. Okay, so then you mentioned earlier, is this not all just some form of feedback? So I'm curious about that, of, "How is this related to feedback? What is the role of reassurance within the feedback world?" I'm trying to make sense of that. You know, there's a great book by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen called Thanks For the Feedback. I'll pop it in the Box O' Goodies. And we've mentioned it a few times, but they talk about three different types of feedback: coaching, evaluation, and appreciation. And so I'm curious, is reassurance a fourth type? Is reassurance part of appreciation maybe? Where does reassurance fit in this for you?

Jen: I think it could be any of the three.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: Because if you came off of the keynote stage and you were like, "So how did I do," someone might say, "I loved it. I thought that was amazing." That is appreciation, which would be reassuring to you.

Pete: I'd be very, very happy with that person.

Jen: Someone might say, "I see so many ways that this could be even better, and here are the ways." That's coaching. And quite frankly, I get worried when someone has no notes for me, so I think it's reassuring when someone says, "You have room to grow."

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, agree.

Jen: And then the final one would be evaluation, where you come off and you go, "How was that," and they say, "Well, we've been at this conference all day and that was absolutely the best keynote of the day." That's evaluation.

Pete: Alright. This is a typically brilliant Jen Waldman answer to my question, I like that. "It can be all three." Hmm.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So the other tool I'm realizing that you and I have mentioned a few times, it actually really relates to all this is the Reflection Script, the RS.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: And I believe we've got an episode titled Reflection Scripts, I'll pop that in the Box O' Goodies too. And I'm realizing that is a tool for us to, like we've been talking about, give ourselves feedback on our process, our work prior to or without relying on external validation or reassurance or whatever that is. So, the process that you and I go through often is...and maybe part of the reason I'm on the therapy couch is because I did not send you my RS for this keynote.

Jen: Oh, yes. This is true. I hadn't noticed that until this moment. Thank you for pointing it out.

Pete: Right. Because usually what we do is we'll, if I've done a keynote, I'll record a voicemail, and vice versa, if you've done a keynote, you record a voicemail, and we send them to one another and we answer three questions. One is, "Overall feelings?" And the next is, "What specifically went well?" And then, "What specifically could you do better?" And that is coming from the brain of us, as in the person who did the thing. So, it's almost a way to combat or train the muscle of not relying on external reassurance. So, maybe I should have listened to my own podcast and done an RS.

Jen: Well, I just decided to take a little dive down the dictionary rabbit hole, because as you were speaking about that I was thinking about the difference between reassurance and assurance.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And you know, when you say someone is self-assured...I was just sort of like wanting to swim around in that for a second, so maybe this is of interest to you. Dictionary definition of assurance is, "Confidence or certainty in one's own abilities." So, that's assurance. And reassurance is, "The action of removing someone's doubts or fears." And it seems to me that that pings exactly off of what you were talking about, the internal versus the external. Assurance or assuredness is internal.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But reassurance is external.

Pete: That's wild. Yeah, and super helpful.

Jen: And I see a world where, when hearing feedback, you could turn that feedback into a sense of assuredness. Like to internalize feedback in a way that gives you confidence in your own abilities, whether it's because someone has reminded you of how strong your abilities are or because someone has given you a way to make yourself better.

Pete: Totally. I think that the meta conclusion for me to this podcast is I feel assured, thanks to this conversation, that the process of doing an RS, the process of being comfortable in the work you've delivered prior to anyone else telling you or giving you feedback on it is a good process. And so I feel assured in that process, and I just forgot to do an RS in that example. But I think that, yeah, thanks to you, I feel assured.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.