The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 221 - Freudenfreude

Transcript:

Jen: Guten Tag, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen? What just happened?

Jen: Or do you mean, "Hallo?"

Pete: I do. I guess I mean hallo, yes. We're speaking German.

Jen: Well, Germ-ish because I don't speak any German. But today I wanted to talk about a word that I read in a recent New York Times article that I am obsessed with. Have you heard of schadenfreude, Peter?

Pete: I have heard of schadenfreude, yes. Yes.

Jen: Well, this is the opposite. This is the opposite of schadenfreude...today, we are discussing freudenfreude.

Pete: Oh my god, I love this word so much. I know we have listeners in Germany, so I apologize in advance for our pronunciation.

Jen: Yes, so sorry.

Pete: This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Could you say that word again? It's just, that's like music to my ears.

Jen: Freudenfreude.

Pete: Freudenfreude.

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Okay, freudenfreude. So can I clarify my understanding of schadenfreude first?

Jen: Yes, you can.

Pete: My understanding of schadenfreude is like when you get joy out of someone else's misfortune. Is that right?

Jen: That is exactly right, is when you take pleasure in someone else's misfortune.

Pete: Yeah. Which, you know, it sounds kind of gross, but I also feel like we've all done it. We all do it. You know? Like, when you witness someone trip over...

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: ...I feel like, you know, as long as they're okay, you can't help but chuckle to yourself, right? Like, "Ooh, that person tripped over."

Jen: Yes. And for some people, their version of schadenfreude is a little more sinister and like not nice. But I love a good news blooper. Maybe I'm going to put some of my favorite news bloopers in the Box O' Goodies, because that is where I derive my schadenfreude from.

Pete: Okay, so then the opposite. Tell me about the opposite.

Jen: Okay, so freudenfreude is finding pleasure in another person's good fortune. It's when you take joy in someone else's success. It's when someone else has something great happen to them or they accomplish something, and it makes you feel happy.

Pete: Oh, I love this. What a great term. What a great...is it a skill? Like, it strikes me as perhaps a skill to work on and improve. Like, I can think of many moments where this happens, I guess without much intention or thought.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Someone you love does something awesome or gets a promotion or achieves something great, and you go, "Oh my gosh, I'm so happy for that person."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So, I guess it's...in part, it can be a natural response. But I always like to think of things as skills, and I'm wondering if this could also be a skill.

Jen: Well, the title of said New York Times article is "The Opposite of Schadenfreude Is Freudenfreude. Here's How to Cultivate It."

Pete: Alright, there we go.

Jen: So since it can be cultivated, I think we can put it under the list of real human skills.

Pete: I love it. Okay, so tell me more about the article. What are you noticing? How are you putting this in action?

Jen: Well, I've had so many aha moments just thinking about freudenfreude. Similar to how much I love a news blooper because of the schadenfreude, I frickin' love a freudenfreude a video. I love watching military family reunions. I can get lost in that for hours, just crying in joy for seeing a child light up when they see a parent they haven't seen in a while. I frickin' love those videos where someone who is colorblind gets the glasses that help them to see color, and they see the world in a new way for the first time. I mean, I go nuts for a freudenfreude video.

Pete: I love that. I've actually, it's funny, I had not actually thought about any of those examples, so this is super helpful. Because I see you as someone who is very good at demonstrating freudenfreude with your clients. Like, you have this unbelievable list of clients that are working at the top top level on Broadway. And when I know you have one of your clients book a show, the joy that you show in telling me the story of, "Guess who just booked this," was like there's so much freudenfreude...what a great word...so much freudenfreude in the way that you interact with your clients. But this idea of like little videos and things, I like that as well.

Jen: Yes. Well, so my big aha moment after reading this article is, I never had a word to describe why I actually love what I do. But to your point just now, what this helps me realize is, it's my favorite part of my job, is the freudenfreude. It is the part of what I do that brings me more joy than anything else, is watching other people rise, other people succeed, watching someone have an aha moment, watching them believe in themselves for the first time. It's just like, there is no better feeling. And it also helped me realize that it is the reason why I ultimately decided that I didn't want to keep acting, because I wasn't experiencing enough freudenfreude.

Pete: Whoa. Whoa. Okay, that's interesting. I feel like that applies to a lot of other industries, too.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Like, I wonder if a lack of freudenfreude is part of the reason people say things like (which I hear all the time), "I don't necessarily love my job, because I don't feel like I'm making a difference," or, "I can't see the impact of the work I'm doing on the people that are our customers or clients." Like, if you're in a back of office job, for example, it can be really hard to see the impact you're actually having on the people who are your customers. And so, ah, I'm just so fascinated by how that might actually be a moment of lacking freudenfreude. Like, I have no idea biologically, but is it possible for us to assert that experiencing freudenfreude is a really important part of being a human being? We are hardwired to experience other people's success.

Jen: I really hope that some scientist pops people in an FMRI machine and proves that to be true, because it feels true.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Okay, I think maybe what I should do is pull up a couple of these tips and tricks from the article, because I think a lot of them ping off of what we're already talking about.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Okay, so how can you experience more freudenfreude? Here are some of the very simple but totally actionable tips from this New York Times article.

Pete: Perfect.

Jen: This was written by Julie Fraga...F-R-A-G-A.

Pete: Nice. Thanks, Julie.

Jen: Okay, so tip #1: "Show active interest in someone else's happiness."

Pete: Mmm. Yeah.

Jen: And she says that you should do this even when you're not actually feeling it. Like, this is me paraphrasing this article, but even when you're experiencing those pangs of jealousy or if you're disinterested in someone's success, behave as though you are interested and behave as though you care. And she says, "Make eye contact. Lean in. Listen." Because that can actually cultivate the feeling of freudenfreude, even if you didn't previously feel it.

Pete: Oh, interesting. It also strikes me as like, that's also practicing empathy, in a way.

Jen: Yes. In fact, earlier in the article, she correlates freudenfreude to what she calls "positive empathy".

Pete: Oh, nice. I'd love to ask her more about that. Positive empathy.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Yeah. I think showing active interest in someone else's happiness makes them feel better, because you're actually making them feel like seen and heard and validated and like their success is important. And to your point, even if it's something that we have to do intentionally because it doesn't come naturally, it eventually makes us experience freudenfreude. It's a bit like that, you know, the science behind like if you just smile even though you're not necessarily happy, you actually improve your happiness. Isn't that wild?

Jen: Yes. It's the same science behind repeating positive affirmations. Like, even if you don't believe it, saying, "I love myself," or, "I am a creative genius," or whatever it is, can help make you feel better.

Pete: Okay, I love that. So, showing an active interest in someone else's happiness. I can think of many ways we can do this. And yeah, that's so true, like that ping of jealousy or, "What does this mean for me," or, "Why them and not me," like that could be so real. And so, it's almost like acknowledging that, catching that, and then choosing to show up in a different way. I like that. I like that.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. I also should mention that these ideas to cultivate more freudenfreude are very two-way street. Like, sometimes it's about how to give more to yourself, and sometimes it's about how to give more to others. Okay, so here's point #2: "View individual success as a communal effort."

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: Which, again, like these are all leadership skills, right?

Pete: Right.

Jen: Like, every one of these tips is like, "Be a better leader."

Pete: Yeah. All the leaders out there listening, I know there's many of you, please tune in.

Jen: Yeah. So, view individual success as a communal effort. And then it says, "When we feel happy for others, their joy becomes our joy."

Pete: Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. I'm intrigued by that one. Because it makes me wonder of like, if I view your success as our success, do I diminish how you feel about it if I communicate that? You're like, "Wait, no. This wasn't us. This was me. Can we celebrate me?"

Jen: Well, that's interesting, because the next point is: "Share credit for your successes with others."

Pete: Yeah. See, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: The inverse, I'm a little more confused by. But, hey, I didn't write the article.

Jen: Well, there is no person who has succeeded in this world without some collaboration on their behalf.

Pete: This is true.

Jen: You know, I think immediately of people who summit Mount Everest, "alone".

Pete: Right, yeah...with twelve sherpas. Yeah.

Jen: Well, right. But even those who decide to climb without sherpas, there are still people down at basecamp sending them information about weather patterns and best time to, you know, ascend to the summit. And so, yes, they are technically physically alone, but it is a team effort.

Pete: Okay. So yeah, it's not about taking away from that person's individual success, but it's about recognizing behind that success is a communal team effort, which then makes it easier to hopefully see and feel freudenfreude.

Jen: Yes, and share credit for your successes with others. And this says, "Because emotions are contagious, showing appreciation can increase freudenfreude for both the gratitude giver and the gratitude recipient."

Pete: Yeah. Again, a leadership skill, sharing credit for those that contributed...so good.

Jen: Exactly. Okay, this one I love: "Turn into a joy spectator. Cultivate joy by inviting others to share their victories." And then it says, "You might ask, 'What was the bright spot of your day,' or, 'I could use some good news. What's the best thing that's happened to you this week?'"

Pete: Yes, I love this. I have two good examples of this in my life. Actually, I think I've mentioned them both on this podcast before. One is my friend Josh Jansen, who, I want to say every single time I catch up with him, he asks the question, "What's been the highlight of your day," or, "What's been the highlight of your week," every single time. It's just like an immediate thing that he wants to know, which is so good. And then, I have mentioned before, I have a Slack group with three amazing changemakers and friends of mine, Kirsty, Mary, and Michael. We have a channel called "Daily Awesomeness", and I guess you could rename that channel "Freudenfreude". It's our attempt to share things that are awesome that have happened to us. Not usually every day, but like at some point during the week, we just pop in and go, "Oh, this awesome thing just happened," and it's like a way of us trying to cultivate that for one another.

Jen: Yeah. And even as you're talking about it, you're smiling.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then the other one is, Tracey instigated a win wall in our house,-

Jen: Right.

Pete: -I think last year, and we still have it. So each month has a different index card, there's a column for Tracey and a column for Pete...I can put a photo of this in the Box O' Goodies...and we just capture like wins throughout the month.

Jen: I actually borrowed the win wall concept from you, and started a "Win Wall" channel in one of my Slack groups with my clients. And when they get a win, whether it is big or small, they post it there. And those are the posts, in all of the Slack channels (because we have so many channels within that particular Slack group), those are the ones that get the most engagement, the most hearts, and happy faces, and, you know, celebratory...what do they call them? Streamers?

Pete: Streamers?

Jen: It's the celebration icon.

Pete: ...confetti?

Jen: Whoa, confetti.

Pete: Is that the word?

Jen: How many of you listeners out there were experiencing schadenfreude when you heard Jen struggling to find the word? It's okay.

Pete: Ah, that's funny. So, are they the four? Was there any others?

Jen: Well, so those are the four. But then, underneath, "Share credit for your successes with others," they just sort of like casually drop this in, but this could be a whole other episode. They talk about an exercise called "braggitude".

Jen: Braggitude.

Jen: And braggitude is, "Expressing gratitude when someone else's success or support leads to your own." And then it says, "Start by sharing your win, then tell the other person how they helped. So if your friend is an accountant who advised you to squirrel away more money. For instance, you might say, 'My savings are growing. Thanks for recommending, you're a great accountant.'"

Pete: Nice. Yeah.

Jen: So braggitude, it's expressing that you have succeeded in some way, while also expressing gratitude and making sure the other person knows they contributed to that success.

Pete: I love this so much. And I mean, you mentioned earlier that like I was smiling in recounting some of these stories. And I've noticed both of us, as we're sharing ideas and stories around freudenfreude, it makes you feel good. I feel good about this episode, just because we're talking about it.

Jen: Yeah. It feels like such a relief to have a word for this feeling. And now that I have a word for it, I can be much more specific in looking for it and craving it and going after moments of freudenfreude because I know, for myself, that freudenfreude could be the thing that actually gives me momentum, that pushes me forward, that like inspires me to keep going. I really thrive on freudenfreude.

Pete: Mmm. I think we're going to find a lot of our listeners do too. So consider this a PSA, I guess, a Public Service Announcement: Listeners, go and seek, go and cultivate, go and look for, go and practice our new favorite German word, freudenfreude.

Jen: Auf Wiedersehen, for that is The Long and The Short Of It.