The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 225 - First Pancakes

Transcript:

Pete: Well, hello, Jen.

Jen: Well, hello, Pete.

Pete: It is a privilege and an honor to be speaking to you at this moment in time, given you are now famous.

Jen: What?

Pete: You are now viral. Your name was referenced in a conversation between Simon Sinek, Brene Brown, and Adam Grant...and I am not okay, and I need to talk about it.

Jen: Honestly, Pete, when I heard that, I was not okay either. So, let's talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Okay, so, some context. I tuned in to A Little Bit of Optimism, or A Bit of Optimism (which is Simon Sinek's podcast) just yesterday on my commute, and he had Brene Brown and Adam Grant on his podcast. And I was like, "Naturally, I want to listen to this and hear what these three are up to." And they were having this conversation about creativity, and in the back of my head, I was kind of like, "I feel like I know someone who could add a lot to this conversation." And then out of nowhere, seemingly, Simon casually says, "So, my friend Jen Waldman has this idea around creativity and pancakes." I'm paraphrasing a lot, but that was kind of the gist of it. And I was like, "What? Jen Waldman? I know Jen Waldman. That's the Jen Waldman. She's my friend. She's my podcast co-host," and I had a whole moment. And then, Brene and Adam were like, "Oh, what a great idea. I love this idea. This is so good." So we're going to talk about pancakes, but like that was my experience in hearing you mentioned yesterday.

Jen: Pete, never in my wildest dreams, did I...well, actually, in my wildest dreams, if I'm being honest...would my name be inside a conversation with Adam Grant and Brene Brown, two of my personal heroes. I know Simon, so it's not as surprising that he would say my name, but the idea that other people would hear it.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: It was interesting. Because it was like, I hear you saying like, "This was a dream of mine," and I get it because it's like something that you might dream of one day too. But the way it was brought up and the reaction they had to it was, for me, it was like, "Of course Jen Waldman was mentioned in this conversation, because this conversation is Jen Waldman." And the conversation was all around how to think about creativity, how to think about pancakes, courage...and so, maybe you could just enlighten us. What was the metaphor they talked about that you shared, obviously, with Simon that got passed on?

Jen: So the specific thing that was brought up on that podcast, but I'm also happy to have conversations with you about things other than pancakes, is the idea that it takes courage to make the first pancake. Because you know that the first pancake is not going to be very good.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And so many of us want to skip over all the hard stuff, and just like, "Get me to the third pancake." But in order to make a really good third pancake, you have to first make a pretty crappy initial pancake. And so much of the creative process is about that. It's about trying something, putting something out there, seeing that it's not that great, and then working on it. And we live in...you know, this didn't come up on the Simon podcast, but I'm just adding that we live in a culture where we are entertained by these reality shows that show creative people making things but eliminate the entire process. So, it kind of looks like someone wakes up one morning and they just have this finished product. But the reality, if it was real...if reality TV was real, we'd see a lot of mistakes, a lot of really ugly things, a lot of things that don't sound that great, that don't look that great, but that's part of the process on the road to actually making something you want to ultimately share.

Pete: Oh, I'm obsessed with this. I mean, I think that this idea of, you know, shitty first drafts, which is what...I think Anne Lamott sort of introduces that term. I think Brene Brown actually mentioned that in her response.

Jen: She did, yeah.

Pete: And so, that idea of like getting the crap out first is really resonant as it relates to this pancake idea. And then, yeah, I mean like any creative pursuit, anything...like we've talked about on the podcast many times before, I think in our first episode, we said, "Our tenth episode is going to be better than our first episode."

Jen: Right.

Pete: But in order to get to the tenth, you have to do episodes one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.

Jen: Right.

Pete: I love the pancakes because it's so accessible and everyone can picture when you first pour the pancake mixture onto the frying pan and you're like, "Oh my god, what is this? This is a mess. I've made this tiny little thing, or this giant thing and it's all over the shop." So it captures so beautifully this metaphor, the messy, murky, creative process. And I would say, from my perspective, the messy, murky leadership process. Like, I think being a leader is a lot like being the one willing to make the first couple of pancakes, you know?

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, you know, so much of the work that I find myself doing with actors is to just get them to do something crazy, so they get their gears moving, and then we sort of like pare it back from there. I'm kind of the "more is more" mentality.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: When you're first starting out, just like get everything out there, and then we can bring it back. And I don't think this is only true for like works of art. I think this is true for all sorts of things. I remember when I was running a theater, I was responsible for our budget. And I would do just a ridiculous version of our budget, to just get something down on the page so I would have something to react and respond to, and then I would, you know, problem solve it from there, Rubik's cube it all, but I needed something to work with. You can't just work with nothing.

Pete: Yeah, you got to give yourself something to react to. There's an idea I've used before with teams and leaders...I'm sure we've mentioned before...but it's like, you know, I think the thing, like you mentioned, the place we get stuck is trying to make the first pancake perfect. So our expectations of what we're about to do, there's something misaligned there. And so, one of the things I find really useful, just as a mental model, is to (a bit like Anne Lamott talks about) write a shitty first draft. It's like, "Come up with ten crap ideas."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: "Come up with ten ridiculous solutions to this problem. And then, once you get to the tenth, maybe something better will start to come." Maybe there'll be a little nugget in there that you can build upon, but you wouldn't have got there, had you not done the ten crap ideas first.

Jen: That's absolutely right. You know, today, literally an hour ago, I was in the studio working with someone on a monologue. And we did it a couple times, and she was making very small, nuanced adjustments each time. And so, I asked her to literally do the opposite of everything she had chosen to do. I was like,-

Pete: George Costanza.

Jen: Oh my gosh, I remember that episode...put that in the Box O' Goodies.

Pete: I will, I will.

Jen: "If you were previously shouting this line, whisper it. If you were previously laughing here, cry. If you were standing, sit." And the whole thing came alive.

Pete: Wow.

Jen: And she probably won't do it that way at the end of the day, but it gave her new ideas, a new sense of invention, a new way to approach. And just sometimes, when we are stuck, we think making these little teeny-tiny adjustments is going get us moving. And that might be true some of the time, but sometimes we need a swift kick in the pants.

Pete: Yeah, I like a swift kick in the ol' pants. So we've talked around this idea a little bit, you actually mentioned something to me offline which I'm now going to ask you to talk about online, which was the relationship between, you know, courage and creativity. So I feel like we've talked a bit about each, but we haven't necessarily talked about how they relate. Can you share what you were sharing with me earlier?

Jen: Yes. I mean, this is, I think, the big aha for me, as I have been doing a lot of reflecting on what I do for a living and like, "What am I actually doing?" And the aha moment that I had, probably a year or two ago but I don't think I've ever really shared it publicly, is that my role is to help people find the courage to be creative. I am someone who is coaching courage. The people that I work with (like all people on the planet, by the way) are creative, but they aren't feeling courageous enough to express their ideas or their creativity. And so, I try to help them find the courage to do that. And so the subsequent aha, after I realized, "Oh, that's what I'm doing," is that I recognize now that when someone tells me they want to be more creative, or if I'm asked to go speak in a non-creative environment about creativity, what people are really asking me is, "How can I be more courageous?" We use the word "creativity" because there seems to be some sort of elusive magic in it and we can sort of like excuse ourselves if we don't find it. But we know we have courage within us. So, I've come to realize that "creativity" is really just another word for courage.

Pete: I feel like...I don't know if other listeners are having this reaction, but this feels like one of the biggest aha moments I've had, hearing you describe this, in our entire podcast library, like this idea that the skill that you're actually helping people develop is courage, the muscle you're helping them build is courage. And it's almost like...and correct me if I'm wrong/I'm putting words in your mouth. It's almost like the output of being courageous is creativity. Like, you can't help but be creative if you've first been courageous. Is that true?

Jen: I think that is true. Because, you know, in an artistic context (which is often where I'm working), we're looking for the courage to make new bold choices about stories that have previously been told, or to find the courage to tell a brand new story. Or sometimes, in the context of show business, I'm trying to help people find the courage to reach out to creative collaborators. But sometimes, like let's say you're in a meeting and someone says, "Please bring me all of your creative ideas," I'm not a mind-reader but I'm pretty in tune with people, and I can almost guarantee you that there are people in that meeting who have an idea when someone says, "Bring me your creative ideas," but they do not have the courage to share it out loud.

Pete: 100%. 100% agree with you.

Jen: So I would love to hear someone say, instead of, "Bring me all of your creative ideas," "Have the courage to share your ideas in this moment."

Pete: Yes. Yes. Because the way you frame that invites and almost expects that like that process is vulnerable and scary, because the ideas might suck and you're afraid of judgment, and so it requires courage. Whereas, "Be creative," is like, "Come up with the third pancake now," is how we interpret that. And you're like, "I'm not going to speak up, because I don't have a third pancake. I'm worried. I think I've got a first pancake." Yeah.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: Yeah, it's wild. I was in a, like, watching a guest speaker last week, which was a coach of a sports team over here in Australia. And he was really generous with his time, and at the end, he said, "Has anyone got any questions?" And a few people asked a question. I actually asked a question. And then afterwards, I was talking to one of the people in the audience and they were like, "Ah, I really wanted to ask him this question, but I was too scared."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: That's what you're talking about, right?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: "I wanted to learn something new, spark a new idea, get some insight, i.e., you know, some form of creativity, but I was too scared to ask the question, i.e., I didn't have the courage or think I had permission to be courageous in order to ask that question." Huh. Wild.

Jen: I'm having like a weird meta aha, on top of all of this right now, which is, literally all we do from the moment we are born until the moment we die is create. We are constantly creating new moments. So, the act of asking a question of someone that you feel too afraid to ask is finding the courage to create a new moment where that question exists in time and space. It kind of reminds me, a little bit, of people who say that they don't do improv or like won't do improv. And I'm like, "What do you think your life is? You are an expert at improv."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And I think we're also experts at creativity. We are creating constantly.

Pete: Yeah. You know, it's funny, I've had that feedback before about some workshops I run, where I'll ask a question or give a prompt and put people into breakouts to discuss said prompt. And a few times, I've had feedback like, "Oh, it would be great if you could give us the prompts in advance so we could prepare." And I was kind of like, "You don't prepare for a conversation that you have with the barista or a conversation that you have with your friend. That's all I'm asking, is like, dance with the topic, you know, interact with the topic in the same way you interact with the barista when you order a coffee. It's just a conversation." And yeah, sometimes we sort of fail to give ourselves that permission to be, again, to be courageous. And I think in a meta way, maybe...I would be curious for your thoughts. Maybe some episodes of our podcast are actually first pancakes.

Jen: Yes. Well, this is an interesting point, I think. Because some of our episodes are first pancake-y, in that, were not fully formed, like our batter is still pretty lumpy as we're having that conversation. And I think the thing that's made us feel courageous enough to share those first pancake episodes is that we have enough episodes under our belt that we know how to, like even if we're not 100% sure what the heck we're talking about, we know how to have a successful conversation with each other.

Pete: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if it's actually a better way of framing it...I'm correcting myself...is, the first two minutes of our podcast is often the first pancake.

Jen: That is so true.

Pete: And it's like, over the twenty minutes, we have confidence that we can reach some sort of second or maybe even a third pancake at the end of the twenty minutes.

Jen: Someday, we've got to find a reason to share some of the stuff that's on the cutting room floor, in our cutting room floor folder. Because the reason episodes make it to the cutting room floor, and not to the air, is because we never quite arrive at what we think the episode is actually about until after we've stopped recording. And then, we're like, "How did that go?" And we're like, "Oh, I don't know if we ever said it was about this." And sometimes, we will go back and say, "We really should record a podcast about that thing though." And then, we'll pull that thing off the cutting room floor, ask ourselves, "What do we actually want to talk about," and then, record the second pancake.

Pete: Yeah. So true. So true. Wow. Well, I feel like my mind is blown. I mean, I love a story, a metaphor, an analogy more than most, and I feel like this one is going to be one I'm going to use probably daily. I'm definitely going to use it with clients. I'm definitely going to use it in talks. I'm definitely going to use it in workshops. You know, like you mentioned, teeing up a breakout, I could use the metaphor of like, "We're going to make our first pancake in this breakout." So if you know what that feels like, then that's what it should feel like. So this idea that, you know, we can think about creativity as like making pancakes, but even more so, that huge aha moment that you unlocked for me, which I've sort of interpreted as, "Everyone can be creative. It just first requires courage."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And that feels like a big aha moment.

Jen: I feel like, at some point, we should do a whole episode on creative courage, because I could go on about that (and I have) for years.

Pete: And maybe, just maybe, you could ask your friends Adam, Brene, and Simon to come and join us for that conversation.

Jen: From your mouth to God's ears. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.