The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 233 - The Hot Seat

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: I had a very exhilarating, eye-opening, and curiosity-piquing experience last week.

Pete: My goodness, I now feel all of those things.

Jen: Yeah, I'm excited to share with you what it felt like to be back in (gulp) the hot seat.

Pete: Aha. Yes, the old dreaded but also helpful hot seat. I'm familiar with this. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: It's so funny, in hearing you say the hot seat, I'm like, "Oh, I have a whole episode of ideas about the hot seat, but we've never recorded it." So like, I want to know where you want to take the hot seat, because I've got to control my brain.

Jen: Oh, that's funny. I can't wait to hear what your episode is going to be about.

Pete: Let's go.

Jen: Okay. Remember on our recent episode called Coaches Need Coaches, I was sharing that I was preparing a new keynote?

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Jen: Okay. Well, I delivered a version of it on Friday.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And it was wild, for so many reasons.

Pete: Tell me more. Tell me more.

Jen: Number one, I stand up in front of my students in my studio literally every single day and deliver the equivalent of a mini-keynote, but it's completely extemporaneous and it's based on whatever happens to be going on in our industry at the moment, so I never really think of it in that context. But in the formal keynote context, I haven't actually done one in-person since January 2020.

Pete: Wow. Yeah, that's over three years of you not practicing that muscle.

Jen: Yeah. Or at least not practicing it in that context, with all of the mental baggage that I have assigned to it.

Pete: Right, right, right, right. Yes, you have practiced the skill set, but not in this context.

Jen: Right.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: So, the thing's being recorded. I'm standing up, delivering the information.

Pete: Is there an audience?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Oh whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Jen: Yeah, there's an audience.

Pete: Now, I'm nervous for you. This is so exciting.

Jen: And the whole time, I'm like...I'm talking, I'm saying words, but there's a conversation in my head that's like, "You have no idea what you're saying. You look crazy. You're not on your voice right now. What are your feet doing? This is unusable footage. Pack it up, Waldman. Get off the stage," like this whole running commentary.

Pete: Oh yeah, I'm familiar with that. Yeah.

Jen: So, that feels like maybe part one of what we need to unpack. But I want to quickly jump to part two, to let us know where we're headed. After the talk, all these people are telling me that it's great, and that there are these mind-bending insights and aha moments like they've never had before, and they just want to know more. And I'm like, "Wow, these people are really nice. They are being real generous." And then, I get the footage, and it's actually quite good.

Pete: Yes. This is so fun.

Jen: So I have this weird experience where I am sure by how it feels in my body that I have no idea what I'm doing, but then watching it back in the third person, I'm like, "Oh, I know exactly what I'm doing. I know exactly what I'm saying. I look confident. I sound confident. And I sound like I know what I'm talking about." So putting myself in the hot seat (which I didn't realize I really needed to be in) of getting up and delivering one of these talks again, has just opened my eyes to, well, so much. I'll let you process that. What have you got?

Pete: So, I mean, so much. I just, I can relate so much to this experience. I'm starting to wonder if...I just like have a completely unformed thought of...if this is the work, this is the hard part of delivering a keynote. Is, yes, connecting with the audience and delivering the content, but when you're quite good at that skill set (which you are), the work is almost like simultaneously dancing with your voice of your imposter or your voice of doubt and insecurity as you're delivering the talk, while also delivering the talk. That's like the mental gymnastics, the hard part, I think, of giving a keynote. I don't know if I fully believe that just yet, it's an unformed thought. But I do think that, gosh, it's a common experience. Like, the amount of times I've walked off a stage and gone, "Huh. Not really sure how that landed. Not really sure about that one." And then, you know, you stay behind and take any questions that people have, and like there's a line of thirty people that want to ask you a question. And you're like, "Oh, okay, I guess it went better than I thought it did."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Wild. I guess that's cognitive dissonance, right?

Jen: Yeah. Also, points back to the The Perception Paradox episode.

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: Except in this case, I am both parties. I am the person with two different perceptions of the experience.

Pete: Yeah, so fascinating. I think about this actually a surprising amount in terms of, you know, if you're giving a talk that you know quite well, multiple times...I think when I was really grappling early on with being asked to talk, is I would get sort of halfway through a talk and I'd realize, "Oh, I didn't say that thing that I usually say. I didn't tell that story in the same way that I usually tell it," and I'd start to think, "This talk is not going well, because I didn't hit the notes I hit last time." But what you fail to realize, in thinking that, is the audience has no idea that that is true.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: And so, this, to me, is like where I find comfort. Is, we know far more than the audience knows about the way we think about this topic, and so we judge ourselves based on all the context we have, all the thinking you've had around this topic, all of the writing, all of the thinking, the speaking, the noodling, the whiteboarding. You have so many ideas and ways of framing the thing that you're talking about, which I think means when you're doing it, you're questioning it more because of how much context you have. Versus if you're hearing it fresh, like the audience, they're hearing everything new for the first time, so they're like, "Oh my god, this is amazing. This is mind-blowing." They're not like, "Oh, but she forgot to say that thing that she thought about three weeks ago." You know?

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because they don't know that.

Jen: It's also making me (just to bring it back to the hot seat idea for a second) recognize that when you're in the hot seat, you're either going to completely melt or you're going to figure out how to withstand the heat. Right?

Pete: Right, right, right, right.

Jen: And now that I have this distance to be able to view the footage, I'm like, "Oh. The way I'm able to withstand the heat is I have a skill set and a toolkit of public speaking technique that I just used."

Pete: Right. Yes.

Jen: To me, it's like making a case for having a skill set, a toolbox, some concrete ideas that you believe in and can rely on, so when you put yourself in whatever your equivalent of the hot seat is, that you can actually do decent work there.

Pete: Yeah, I have two thoughts on that. One is, there is a quote that's been attributed to so many people, I don't even know who to attribute it to...I think most recently it was attributed to James Clear, but I don't actually think he was the one who originally came up with it, which is that, "We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training, or we fall to the level of our habits, or we fall to the level of our systems, or we fall to the level of our processes, our practices," whatever, but you get the point.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Tim Ferriss talks about that idea a lot, like so many people have talked about that, that again, I don't know who to attribute to. But I think that's what you said, which is, when you're in a hot seat, like you mentioned, it's like you're going to melt to the point of where your practice and skill set lies. You know? And for you, that might have just been like, oh, you're just like slightly warmed, but no one else noticed because you just felt it. You didn't get to the point where someone was like, "Oh my gosh, is Jen Waldman melting right now," because your skills, your habits, your practice, your bar is actually quite high.

Jen: Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm just having all sorts of aha moments around this. Like, there are other skills that I have worked to develop, but unless I put pressure on them, I won't actually know if they're solid.

Pete: Right. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So, herein lies one of the things I was thinking about when you said, "Let's talk about being in the hot seat." Which is, another way of thinking about it, I think, is actually being on the hook.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And one of the experiences that you and I are probably really familiar with, with others being in the hot seat or on the hook, is through coaching.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Because that person is there to think out loud, to answer questions, to thrash, to noodle based on questions you're asking them. So, they're feeling some version of like, "I'm in the hot seat. These are kind of unformed thoughts, but I'm working through something." And one of the things I think is so powerful about that experience, as a coach, is you're giving the person being coached, the leader or the executive or the creative or whoever it is, you're giving them a space to practice and hopefully build confidence in the fact that they know the answer to the thing they're stuck on, or they actually know far more about a topic than they're giving themselves credit for.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And so, I will pause. I could come up with all sorts of examples of how I actually use this very practically with a bunch of leaders, but I think it's all about...it's basically reminding people you're not going to melt.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: You know? "You'll be in the hot seat, but trust me, you know you've got this. Like, you're not going to melt."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And sometimes, I think we forget. Sometimes, I think we go, "I'm not sitting in that hot seat because it's too hot." Does that make any sense?

Jen: Yes. Yes. I mean, I'm just, I'm sitting here going like, "Yes, and...," even knowing that, one still will continue to experience all of the doubt, which is why it's good to see your coach next week too.

Pete: Exactly. I mean, I think you mentioned this in the Coaches Need Coaches episode...or maybe I mentioned it. Which was, I know sometimes what question you're going to ask me, because we know each other so well, but it's still helpful for you to ask me and I still feel the tension when you ask the question.

Jen: Yes, yes, yes. And I'll tell you, Pete, in preparing this keynote, the session that I had the day before I did this, with my speaking coach, she was like, "Do you want to run what you're doing? Or do you just want me to ask you a bunch of questions?" And I was like, "Ask me a bunch of questions."

Pete: Yeah. Okay, so this is the practice that I have. I do this, at the moment, in almost any workshop or keynote I run. Because it's so powerful for so many reasons, that there's even reasons that I haven't quite figured out why it's so powerful, but it is. And basically, it's really simple. I did this literally yesterday with a group, where you either pair people up or put people in groups of three or four, and you have some one person that, for a period of time, sits in the hot seat. And I say to them, that person in the hot seat, "Just share what's the thing you're stuck on at the moment." And then, the other two or three or one person, "All you're allowed to do is ask questions."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: "Don't make statements. Don't give opinions. Save all of that, you can save that for later. For right now, this moment in time, all I want you to do is ask questions." And Jen Waldman, it still blows my mind how effective and like crazily aha moment-inducing that practice is. It could be short. Yesterday, I did a three minutes each, and someone was like, "Oh my god, I feel like I finally have a path forward, in three minutes." And I'm like, "I didn't do anything. I just create the space for one person to sit in the tension of being in the hot seat." And actually, what I also think is interesting is sometimes people feel the tension being the question-asker, too, which is like a wild other part of it.

Jen: Yeah, because you want to help.

Pete: Right. Exactly. You want to state opinions, because it's easier. But this practice of, again, it's like giving people permission and reminding them that sitting in the hot seat is uncomfortable, and you won't melt. In fact, you might actually realize, like you did, "Oh, I have some ideas," or, "I actually know what I'm talking about," or, "I actually can lean on the skill set that I've developed over time." So anyway, I mean, I cannot recommend that activity enough. It doesn't require a specifically unique skill set, you just need permission to ask questions.

Jen: It reminds me of this drama therapy exercise. I can't remember if I've ever mentioned this on the podcast, I have several clients who were former professional actors who became drama therapists. And some who work with very high-risk populations, and it's just amazing to hear about their experiences. But in any case, there's this drama therapy exercise where you play yourself in the future, having accomplished the thing that you want to accomplish. And then, the other person (maybe it's the therapist, maybe it's someone else in the group) plays you today.

Pete: Wow. Yeah.

Jen: And the person playing you today, all they do is ask you (playing future you) questions about how you did it, what you overcame, how you met certain challenges. And it illuminates so much possibility, and gives people confidence. And it sounds a lot like your hot seat exercise.

Pete: Wild, yeah. This is such a multifaceted exercise. Like, I use it in order to help leaders get better at coaching their teams, like get better at asking questions, get better at practicing curiosity. And like I mentioned, I feel like there's so many different lenses to look at this exercise through, because what I also realized it does is it builds empathy between the two people, creates connection, and it also requires a level of humility to be willing to say, "Here's what I'm struggling with," and basically be open to questions and feedback.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So in my mind, it speaks to...and I'm biased...but it speaks to what I've been thinking about as the three most important skills of a leader: humility, empathy, and curiosity. And it's like all contained in this one exercise. And I did not know that drama therapy is part of it too. Wild. Wild. Wild. The hot seat, it's multifaceted.

Jen: And any drama therapists out there, if I have misrepresented the exercise, I would say, "Please write in," but I know you will.

Pete: Yes, hello@thelongandtheshortpodcast.com. Please, correct us.

Jen: Put us in the hot seat. So my big takeaway from this experience, Pete, is...well, and this is to be unpacked on a future episode...why do I assign so much baggage to giving a keynote, just because someone's calling it a keynote?

Pete: Oh, interesting.

Jen: When, literally what I do all day, every day is talk to people about things I care about. But for this episode, the big takeaway is that the best way to test your skill set is to put yourself in the hot seat.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.