The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 234 - Difficult Conversations

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So I feel like we tee up an episode like this every now and then, which is, "I've had six conversations that have all been centered around the same thing in the last week."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Sometimes, it seems that there's a macro theme happening in the conversations that I'm having...and anyway, this is one of them. So in the last week, I must have had, I think, literally six clients come to me and ask about how to navigate difficult conversations.

Jen: Mmm. Yep.

Pete: And I know for a fact that you have thoughts, we have resources and ideas about navigating difficult conversations. And I realized we've never actually like dedicated an entire episode to it, so here we are, dedicating an episode to difficult conversations.

Jen: This is the moment. And this is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: You know, it's funny because the first time I had a conversation about how to have difficult conversations, I thought to myself, I might have even said to the client, I was like, "I'll send you a podcast on this. Jen and I have talked about this." And I was looking through the catalogue, and I was like, "Where is that...? I don't think we have an episode."

Jen: That happens to me all the time.

Pete: Yes. Yes, so we need to record one. So, I mean, I have so many directions to take this. So like, I need to take a deep breath. But the first thing I have been pausing to ponder, and I'd be curious for your thoughts, is like what makes difficult conversations difficult?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And I have asked a bunch of clients this. I was going back through some of the workshops I ran last year, and I asked a group this. And some of the things that came up...and I'm paraphrasing, but some of the things that came up were around, "I don't want to hurt the other person. I don't want to have my own feelings hurt. I'm worried about the conversation not going well, whatever that means. I'm worried about it going poorly. I'm worried about conflict," like these kinds of fears, to me, are the things that often come up when we're thinking about difficult conversations. So I've been really curious, just like asking that question. Okay, so what makes the conversation difficult in the first place?

Jen: Well, two things immediately come to mind for me. One is FOPO (fear of people's opinions), which we both agree is at the center of everything. I've actually landed on that, as humans, we have two primal fears: the fear of death and the fear of people's opinions. And that like, everything else stems from that.

Pete: And also, isn't it in some research, they suggest that people fear public speaking more than death?

Jen: Yes, that's why I've separated them.

Pete: But that's FOPO.

Jen: Yeah, and that's why they're separated.

Pete: Right, right, right. Oh my god, wild.

Jen: So, FOPO is the first thing. But the second thing that immediately came to mind is that difficult conversations create change, and it's easier to stay the way we are.

Pete: Yes. I agree with all of that. And I think what often happens is...in fact, the clients I was talking to last week, one of them in particular said, "And so, I build it up in my head and I build it up in my head and I build it up in my head, and I delay it and I postpone it and I delay it. And then eventually, when I have the conversation, I'm like, 'Oh, that wasn't so bad.'"

Jen: Right. That's usually...

Pete: Right. So the procrastination creates the story that the conversation is even more difficult, is what I've been thinking. Like, I feel like the reason that conversation is difficult is because of the story we tell ourselves. And the stories we tell ourselves, like you mentioned, are often rooted in a fear of people's opinions, like, "This is going to go terribly," or, "I'm going to offend them," or, "I'm going to upset them," or, "I'm going to upset myself. And how am I going to be reflected?" I totally agree with that. And/or, "As a result of this conversation, everything is going to be different in terms of the relationship or the connection or the work that I do with this other individual."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And so, we fear that change. And we like...I mean, we're humans. We like homeostasis. Now, I've been sharing two frameworks in particular that I find helpful to think about as it relates to difficult conversations. There's a bunch of thinking behind each of them, but maybe it's helpful for me to share a couple. And then, I feel like I know that you have thoughts and frameworks. So, I have two. Okay, the first one is really quite simple. And that is, I feel like when we're having difficult conversations (and I feel like this is often true when we're giving feedback as well), what we want to do is share an observation and a curiosity. And so, for me, this idea of observing the behavior that's happened and then getting curious about why that might have happened is a really neat way of just like a mental model for communicating a difficult conversation. And so, that might sound like, "Hey, Jen. I've observed that you have been a little bit disengaged in the last couple of times that we caught up, or I've observed that you were distracted in the meeting that we had yesterday, and I'm really curious why that might be or what's going on for you." Then, that is like one way to start the conversation. And I think the thing I like about observations and curiosities, is you kind of just repeat it. You are constantly observing the behavior and then getting curious about why their behavior might be true. And gosh, I feel like I could talk for an hour about that particular framework, but I want to pause and like get your reactions and thoughts.

Jen: I think it's so brilliant and simple. And then, the thing I want to add to it is actually something that I tell my actors all the time: listen, listen, listen.

Pete: Yeah. And so that speaks to the second framework, that I wrote about recently that got some really good reactions on my blog, and I've been using it with clients for a while now. And it is EARS, E-A-R-S. It's an acronym. But it's also fun because it spells "ears", which is exactly what you said, I feel like the thing that we don't do enough in difficult conversations is we don't listen. We forget to use our ears. And so, as much as possible, what I encourage clients to do is to use their ears. And how I articulate this framework is, in any given difficult conversation, we want to empathize. We want to ask questions. We want to reflect back what we've heard. And we want to kind of state our position and how we want to move forward.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And I think why that can be really effective is it adopts a posture of curiosity. And this, I think, herein lies one of the really profound shifts in the way that I've certainly navigated difficult conversations in the past, is, "Can I go in with a posture of curiosity, as opposed to a posture of defensiveness or a posture of assumptions or a posture of 'I said, they said,' and actually just go in with a really curious posture?" So yes, that's my little EARS framework. And I've been spending a lot of time like really trying to almost question whether it's the "right" framework, a helpful framework. And I feel like, I thought it would be fun to bounce it around with you in real time, and you can help me decide if It's an effective framework.

Jen: I love it. I'm into it. And I have questions, because I really want to understand this. All four of these, "Empathize. Ask questions. Reflect back what you've heard. And state your intention for moving forward," I'm curious about the order. And does the order matter? And if this is the order, if E proceeds A proceeds R proceeds S, does it always have to start with E? Like, could I start with my statement of my intention to move forward, and then move to one of the other steps? Like, does it have to go in that order?

Pete: Yeah. It's so funny you asked this, because I actually don't know. Like, my initial thought in communicating this and writing it out was, "You should do this in this order." And you do that by...like empathizing, to me, is, "Can I understand what might be going on for the other person," which then kind of naturally lends itself into asking questions. Once you've asked a question and someone has responded to the question, it makes sense to reflect back what you've heard. The thing I think might be movable is the S, is the state back, like you said. Maybe you could turn it into SEAR, S-E-A-R,, and actually state upfront. I do kind of think that the E, the A, and the R sort of go in that order, intentionally.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: My overarching feeling with difficult conversations and frameworks like this is, there's kind of no right answer. So, I would encourage people to take what feels like it would be helpful for them in navigating a conversation that feels difficult. And if that means you feel better stating upfront, I'd just be like, "Try that. Experiment with that. See how that goes." And I can step through like an example or a script of how I think about this, if it's helpful.

Jen: Ooh, yes. I would love that.

Pete: So this is top of mind, because I came up with this. It's hypothetical, but it's also, I think, broadly applicable. And that is like, imagine someone that you're trying to give feedback to is non-receptive to feedback. So every time you're sitting down with someone in a corporate setting (it's the example I've come up with because that's where I spend a lot of my time), you're trying to give them some feedback, they're getting defensive and they're completely unresponsive and they shut the conversation down, which makes you just kind of think, "I actually don't even want to give you feedback. I actually don't even want to have this conversation." So rather than do that, I thought, "What would it look like to have a difficult conversation about not being able to give feedback?" And so, I would say something like this, this is kind of the script I've been thinking about: "I've been thinking about the feedback conversations we've had, Jen, and I have some thoughts that I really want to share with you. But I feel a bit awkward about sharing them. And I just want to acknowledge, this is kind of an awkward conversation. And so first, I'm really curious, can you help me understand, A., how you feel about these conversations, and B., is there a way I can change how I'm giving you feedback so that you might receive it a bit better?" And then, I would pause. So one thing I didn't mention is, I actually think it's really worth acknowledging the discomfort and the awkwardness of a difficult conversation.

Jen: Always.

Pete: Like, "Embrace the awkward," I think is something Brene Brown would probably say. And then, in that example, I think I empathized with you, and I tried to ask a question to understand what might be going on for you. So, I guess that's my version of the E and the A. And then, I would, naturally, I would reflect back whatever you said, which would be the R. And then, when appropriate, I might go back to asking more questions. But when appropriate, I would state something like, "Well, I feel like I often leave our conversations feeling a little bit flat, and like you've been a bit defensive about our feedback. And the impact of that is, it's making me like question whether I should even bother giving you feedback and whether you actually care about the feedback that I have. Now, I care about you and your growth and our working relationship, so I would love for us to figure out a way forward. And I'm curious what you think that might be," something like that.

Jen: Yeah. I like it. I like it a lot. I'm replaying a conversation I had during a class today, that was difficult...not for me. It was difficult for the other person. And I think we followed the EARS framework.

Pete: Oh, no way.

Jen: Can I run it by you?

Pete: Please, please, please.

Jen: Okay, coach, so this is what happened. One of my clients was feeling very raw about some current frustrations in wanting to be seen a certain way in her industry and feeling like she was being seen differently. And the subject of whether or not she needed to create a dance reel...which is a video of herself dancing.

Pete: Okay.

Jen: That subject came up. Now, I was empathizing, "Yes, it is very hard. Yes, it takes a lot of guts. Yes, I've been there. Yes, everyone in this room has been there." Okay, and then I asked a question. And the question I asked was, "Are you a dancer?" And she proceeded to explain something. So I listened, and so I reflected back and I said, "You answered a question, but it wasn't the question I had asked you. The question I asked you was, 'Are you a dancer?' And in order for me to tell you whether or not you need a dancer reel, I just need you to answer that question."

Pete: Hmm. Nice.

Jen: Which, I think, is empathize: "I feel you. It's hard." Ask a question: "Are you a dancer?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Answers it. "I'm reflecting back that you answered a question, but it was not the one I asked." "And I'm stating that in order to move forward, I need you to answer the original question."

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Did I do it, coach? Did I do it?

Pete: You did it. My god, you used my framework. Isn't that fun?

Jen: And now that I have that in my back pocket, I'm going to use that more.

Pete: Yeah. The other thing about it that I quite like is, like you just described, it doesn't need to take thirty minutes to get through that framework. Like, it can happen in like thirty seconds.

Jen: Yeah. I also feel like it's important to just back up and say that it can be true that a conversation is only difficult on one end of it.

Pete: Oh yeah. So true. Again, the story we tell ourselves about what makes it difficult, I feel like it's important.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. So Pete, this whole conversation about difficult conversations is making me want to remind people of a book we mentioned on a recent episode of this podcast,

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: A book which is called...drumroll...Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Sheila Heen, and Bruce Patton. And the last time I referenced this book, I left out Bruce Patton.

Pete: Sorry, Bruce.

Jen: So, Bruce is being included this time. It's an excellent, excellent book that helps you navigate difficult conversations.

Pete: Totally. I was sharing with you earlier that this book and Thanks for the Feedback, which is by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen as well, are two of my favorite books as it relates to being a leader and having difficult conversations. And I also get them kind of confused, because I read them kind of one after another, so they blend into each other for me. Have you got like a Jen's Cliffs Notes summary of that particular book, and what you discovered from it?

Jen: Well, why they are such great companion books is that Difficult Conversations, there's lots of details in it but it all points back to this same idea that we want to move a difficult conversation into a learning conversation, where we are curious and seeking understanding. And Thanks for the Feedback is, again, lots of detail and nuance in there but it all points back to this idea that we want to take feedback, whether it's easy to digest feedback, hard to digest feedback, or just plain rude feedback, and figure out how we can steer it into coaching for ourselves. So in both cases, their suggestion is to make this a learning experience.

Pete: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jen: A growth experience.

Pete: I love that. I'm obsessed with that. I feel like, I mean, my brain summarizes learning into curiosity, in terms of one way to think about having these conversations then becomes, "Have a curious conversation."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Which I think, like I mentioned, fits the EARS framework of like, "Can I get really curious?" It also literally fits the observations and curiosities framework, because it's about being curious so that you can learn and understand what might be happening for the other person and why it might be either difficult or not difficult for them. And maybe this is too obvious to say out loud, but I feel like what curiosity sounds like is questions.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And so, I did this yesterday with a group of amazing leaders/changemakers here in Australia. And there was ten of them on the call. And I said, "Let's do a three minute brainstorm," we were on Zoom, "in chat, what are some great questions you could ask in a difficult conversation?" And we came up with like, I think it was fifty-four questions in three minutes.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: And I was saying to them, "You could literally, if you're on Zoom or if you're going into a meeting, you could just jot a couple of these questions down, these questions that are rooted in curiosity that helps you navigate difficult conversations." And I don't know, I feel like...I've actually put some of them on a blog, with their permission. I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies. But I feel like sometimes people get stuck with curiosity. "What does that mean? What question do I ask?" And so, sometimes I'm like, "Literally just come up with as many questions as possible now. And maybe one or two or three of them will be helpful when you have your next difficult conversation."

Jen: Yes, cross that bridge before you come to it.

Pete: Alright, with the cross-reference back to old episodes...the callback, as they call it in comedy.

Jen: Yeah. You know, when you said, "The sound of curiosity is questions," I wanted to add, "...and silence."

Pete: Yes. So not to make this an acronym overload, but when I'm talking to leaders about how to be more curious, how to be more coach-like...and that's generally not necessarily just limited to having difficult conversations...the framework I like to use is AHA, which is A-H-A: Ask questions, hold space. Ask questions, hold space. And if you do that correctly, what often happens is someone will have an aha moment. So, it's sort of a cute little framework that I've also come up with there, Jen.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: It's just me and my frameworks today, apparently.

Jen: And for the Americans, [Australian accent] "H" means [American accent] "H".

Pete: Ah, yes. Sorry, folks.

Jen: Well, Pete, even though when anticipating a difficult conversation, I can sometimes feel anxiety around it, the tools that you just offered have actually made me excited for my next difficult conversation.

Pete: Wow, there's a fun statement.

Jen: So, thank you for that.

Pete: And I think it's worth acknowledging, again, the fact that even with a framework, difficult conversations are probably still going to feel uncomfortable. They're going to feel awkward. They're going to feel like something you want to avoid. And yet, in my experience at least, the difficult conversation is rarely as difficult as the story you tell yourself about said difficult conversations.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.