The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 241 - Gravitas

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Hello, Pete.

Pete: I have a question for you. I'm not even sure if this is an episode or not, but I just have a question that I really want to ask you.

Jen: Okay...

Pete: And I can get into the context, but the question is essentially, how do you think about gravitas? What does that even mean to you?

Jen: Whoa, I was not expecting that. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So, let me paint some context. I have been running a bunch of really, really...well, I think they're great...really, really great workshops with a really, really great bunch of people, a bunch of general managers and senior executives and heads of at a very large corporate here in Australia. And it's been happening in all different cohorts, there's like all sorts of different...some of them are in person, some of them are remote, some of them are all based on the same team, some of them are not. So it's like a real varied group and they're all having slightly different conversations for each of them, depending on who they are and where they are in the business. But it's all around leadership development, and I'm sort of acting as the facilitator/executive coach, helping them all try and be better leaders/better team members. Anyway, this idea of communication and influence is coming up a lot and a lot in all the conversations unrelated to one another. Like I said, these are different groups right across an organization. And almost every single time, we've ended up on some topic around, "How do I communicate more effectively? How do I influence my stakeholders more effectively?" And then literally, every single time, someone says, "Can you teach us about gravitas?" And I'm like, "I don't even know what I think of that word. I don't even know how to unpack that word. But I know who does. I feel like I know someone who has some thoughts on this topic, this word." I actually think my understanding of the word might be incorrect, based on the literal definition. So I'm just like, I need to throw this word around with you, so that I can better help the people that I'm working with.

Jen: So, I want to understand. These leaders are wanting to add more gravitas to their communication style?

Pete: Yes. I think more context would be helpful. Basically, what's happening is often we end up, like I said, we're in this conversation about, "How do I be more influential as a leader?" And I'll say something like, "Okay, let's talk about what makes a leader really effective at communicating." And they'll say, "Oh, they tell great stories," or, "They're quite charismatic," or, "They're able to empathize with the audience." And then inevitably, someone will say, "They have great gravitas," or, "They have a lot of gravitas. And like, that's an aspiring skill that I want, because I see it as being effective for communication." Now, I don't even know if I agree with that, at this point. I'm just like, "Interesting that that is a word that keeps coming up."

Jen: I'm really curious, first, to just put this word in context. I'm curious if America and Australia have the same idea about this, because there are other things you and I have shared that we're like, "Oh, that definitely across the globe means something different." And in my line of work, gravitas in acting has a very specific connotation. So I would like to hear you define gravitas.

Pete: Well, it's interesting you say that, because this is where I'm like questioning if my...I actually think I had a misconstrued definition of gravitas. In my head, I get gravitas and, I think, charisma probably too confused. Like, I sort of associate them together. But I don't actually think they are. If you go by the literal definitions, I think literally, in Australia, someone with gravitas would be someone who has the ability to influence, but like influence through quite an executive, senior, almost serious manner. And so, I think that's what actually the literal definition is, when I've heard it. In the context of our conversation, though, it sounds like people are asking about charisma and like the ability to hold a room and the ability to influence because, you know, you're hanging on every word because it's so impactful what you're saying. But I don't actually think that's the literal definition. So maybe, actually, we're like talking about the wrong word. But that's what comes up for me. What does it mean in the acting context? I'm so curious.

Jen: Well, first, let me just say that the way I think about gravitas in a more general context is, there is something that is serious, weighty, profound, deep.

Pete: Yep.

Jen: And in the acting context, sometimes people chase gravitas at the expense of honesty.

Pete: Oh, interesting, interesting, interesting.

Jen: Which, as an acting teacher, I would say chasing a feeling or a quality can actually disrupt the excellence of your work. And instead, what is the action you are seeking to perform? So I'm curious, in the leadership context with your clients, what is the action they are trying to take in order to invoke that perception of themselves in others?

Pete: I love this. I absolutely think you nailed it. I wrote down like, "What's the skill behind the skill?" Like, it presents as, "I think I need to have more gravitas." But to your point, if you're trying to be profound, you're probably not going to be.

Jen: Exactly.

Pete: It's very...it comes across as almost inauthentic. Like, yeah, it just doesn't quite land. So, I agree with you. So it's like, "What's the skill behind the skill?" For me, I think what we're talking about is, like I sort of alluded to earlier, it's like, "The skill I'm seeking is a confidence in the way I communicate my ideas, and an ability to influence and change the energy or the emotions or the thoughts or the ideas in the room." And often what we're talking about is like, there's a very specific agenda or a very specific issue that this particular team is passionate about helping the organization solve. And so, it's like, "How do I get everyone else's attention and help them see how valuable this is? Because we see it, so how do we influence others to see it?" So, I think the skill behind the skill is kind of like effective communication and influence.

Jen: Okay, so I feel like I've mentioned this in passing. And each time, I promise I'm going to do an episode on it, and then I never tee it up. But I have this document that I call "Jen's Rules of Engagement for Effective Communication." And I teach these rules in a lot of my workshops and classes. One of the rules is: Tell the truth. And when I ask people what they think I mean by, "Tell the truth," they assume that I mean, "Don't lie." But what I actually mean is, "Tell the truth about how much you care. Tell the truth about how passionate you are. Tell the truth that you have an emotional connection to the thing that you're talking about, or that you have fears, or that you have hopes." So often when we are feeling impassioned by something we're sharing, we become embarrassed for caring that much and so we start to mute our own delivery. And that might be...I mean, I'm assessing without having seen any of it in action, but I'm wondering if that might be part of what the executives you're working with are dealing with, that it can sometimes feel embarrassing to feel passionate about the stuff you're communicating.

Pete: Interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's almost an act of vulnerability to share how passionate you are about a certain idea or topic. In fact, not almost...it is.

Jen: Yes. And to invoke Brene Brown for a moment, "Tell the truth does not mean overshare."

Pete: Right. So this is the exact tension I was just thinking when you were sharing that, is I could see a world, yes, where you're right that part of the challenge with any leader in any organization is being willing to speak up about the thing you're passionate about and not being embarrassed by that. And I can actually see the inverse, which is someone who's so passionate that they do not shut up and let anyone else in and have any input or any say, and so what basically happens is someone sits through a monologue. And of course they don't feel inspired or motivated to change their behavior, because they're like, "You just talked at me for forty-five minutes, or twenty minutes, or however long it is." So, I feel like there's a tension there.

Jen: Yes. And I should say, it's one of a longer set of guidelines. So, you know, when I teach the Jen's Rules of Engagement for Effective Communication, the idea is all of the above all the time, instead of picking and choosing.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That makes sense.

Jen: You mentioned a word that has come up a lot in my household lately, which is "charisma".

Pete: Oh, interesting.

Jen: And the reason it came up is because my thirteen-year-old daughter has been helping me understand teenage slang. And one of the phrases that gets tossed around between my daughter and her friends is "rizz". And when someone has rizz, what I've come to understand is it means that they want to make themselves available to be seen by other people as attractive or desirable or, you know, insert adjective there. And what my daughter's best friend explained to me is that it is a derivative of the word "charisma".That when someone has rizz, what it actually means is they have charisma. And I'm thinking about this in the context of your leaders, if I apply the thirteen-year-old middle school definition here to what you're talking about with gravitas, I think about wanting to make yourself available to appear fill-in-the-blank to the other party.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Oh, I love this. I mean, not for the first time, Cate and her language is teaching us all something.

Jen: Oh my gosh. No cap, Pete. You're so amazing. It's on God, on fleek. You slay.

Pete: Aesthetic. Aesthetic. Our listeners are either laughing because they're like, "Oh my god, these two are so old. They don't even know how to use the words in context," or they're like, "I have no idea what they're talking about," maybe because they're the same age as us. Oh, that's too good. So, yes, I actually kind of love the word "rizz" being short for "charisma". Maybe it's because I'm Australian, and Australians love to shorten. We love abbreviations, love to make things shorter than their actual word. And, yeah, so I really like that idea. I think you might be right. I think what perhaps people were seeking is this idea of rizz. Now, I guess another way of looking at the conversations I was having is also, if I'm a leader and I'm looking to have influence, and perhaps I'm looking at the other leaders I think of as influential, I think perhaps there is the notion of, "I'm trying to replicate someone else's style and behavior," which isn't actually always necessarily the case. Like, I think you can...and this is part of where I've been having a conversation with them is, around, I think what you're actually seeking to do is make change. How you go about that, if it means you have a heap of rizz and you're able to make change, awesome. But also, if you're just like a, you know...Susan Cain in her unbelievable book, Quiet, is about the power of an introvert and how they can influence and create change. You know, traditionally, one might say, "Well, a really introverted person might not necessarily have what we consider charisma or rizz." But actually, what she talks about is, that doesn't make them any less effective at influencing and leading and communicating. So I think part of it is, we have this misconception of what it means to be a really effective leader and a really effective communicator. Part of it is, we've seen and we all know people who have a lot of charisma (or rizz, as the cool kids call it) and so we seek to like, "Oh, that must be the thing I need." And so, for me, part of the conversation I'm having with them is, "That's awesome for the people who, that is their leadership style. But if the goal is creating change, how might you create change in a way that is in alignment with your values, and how you show up, and the way you want to lead? And that might be leaning into more charisma, but it also might be influencing in other ways." And I have a bunch of people that are like, "Actually, rather than working a room, I'd rather have one-on-one conversations with the ten decisionmakers and influence them that way." And that's not necessarily rizz related. It's actually just a level of intentionality in how I'm seeking to communicate and influence.

Jen: And maybe that's what your rizz factor is.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Okay. This is reminding me of something that comes up often at my studio, and that is when I see someone doing top notch work but I can tell that they're holding back just a little bit. They're holding their rizz back. So, I typically go about this two different ways. One is, I just give the note, "I need you to do the star version of that. I need you to snap into the star version of yourself." And for some people, that is literally all they need to hear, and they're like, "Ah, got it. Let's go." And then, the whole thing elevates and the rizz factor rises. But sometimes, when someone is not able to put their finger on, for themself, what their own unique charisma or gravitas or rizz style is, I'll have them borrow from someone else. And I wonder how you could do this, you know, talking about the leaders who are trying to model themselves after others. So I will say to an actor, "Let's just try this again. And as a tool of permission, I want you to play," and we'll pick a diva that they love. So, Liza Minnelli. "I want you to play Liza Minnelli playing you playing Elphaba."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then, they are able to sort of like give themselves permission to try new ways of expressing themselves. And then after they've had that one pass where they're playing Liza playing them playing the role, then they just get to play the role on the next pass, but they've unlocked this secret ingredient in themselves that they were hiding before.

Pete: Oh, I like this. I feel like, you know, maybe what we're ultimately talking about, whether it relates to gravitas or communication or rizz, is, "I'm feeling stuck in how to get this message across." And this message could be whatever it needs to be, could be a song, could be a presentation, could be a leader trying to deliver feedback, whatever. "But I feel stuck." And so, what you're providing is, "Here are some tools to get unstuck." Right?

Jen: Right.

Pete: It goes back to the idea of the creativity pancakes, which you so beautifully gave to our listeners. By the way, I've heard Tracey and other friends of mine using "first pancakes" on work phone calls, and I'm like, "Oh my god, yes. This is so good. It's making its way into the vernacular, so good."

Jen: Yes, I love it.

Pete: So I think it's a version of that, right?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It's like, "Let's pretend like you are that leader or that singer, and like try that on first," and just try and get the wheels in motion to help that person realize or uncover or see where their rizz is, in that. I'm really loving this word "rizz", can you tell?

Jen: Love the rizz, the star power, the it factor, the gravitas, the pathos, all of it.

Pete: Well, unsurprisingly, this has been incredibly helpful for me. And how, I just knew you would help me see this idea of gravitas from different perspectives, as you always do. And so, I'm excited to continue the conversation with the leaders I'm working with around, "What are we actually talking about? What's the skill behind the skill? What is your rizz look like?" I'm just going decide whether I'll use the word "rizz" with a bunch of executives, we'll see. We'll see, we'll. Maybe they have some teenage daughters of their own.

Jen: Well, it'll certainly take the edge off and not put so much gravitas on the moment. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.