The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 242 - Second Time Syndrome

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Today, I want to talk to you about a phenomenon that I'm quite familiar with. And I'm actually quite surprised we've never done an episode about it. I want to talk to you today about second time syndrome.

Pete: Second time syndrome...I've never heard those words come out of your mouth, so I'm super curious if this is something you know well. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Isn't it fun that we can still find things that we haven't talked to each other about?

Jen: I know, after all these years. Well, the reason I'm excited to share this with you is because most of the things that I engage with every day at my studio, it's really easy for me to find the application in other contexts. I want to hear how this resonates with you in a leadership context, in a management context, and see if there's a there, there, that might be helpful to people who are not actors. So, what is second time syndrome? Second time syndrome is a very common ailment in which an actor does not allow themselves to be fully expressive on the first time, on the first pass on something, but does their best work on the second pass. And in the context of working in a class, like the classes I offer at my studio, it's not the end of the world because we typically are getting multiple passes in of each piece. But in an audition context, which is where most of these pieces are going after they work with me, you don't get a second time. You have to be able to do it on the first time, so what I try to help people do is start to find ways to tame their second time syndrome or even create hacks and shortcuts to fake your brain into thinking you got a first pass so that you can do the second pass.

Pete: Right. So, the goal is to help yourself think, "This is the second time."

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Gotcha, gotcha. Love it. The easiest comparison that comes out, which I think there's far more that I'd love to dig into, but the easiest one that comes out when you say "audition" is like a job interview. You know?

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: When someone shows up to a job interview at a company, and it might be the first time they've ever answered any of the questions that are being asked of them, it's unlikely to be as effective or for them to come across as hireable as if they've thought about or practice or considered some of the questions prior. Or, you know, it's their second interview as opposed to the first interview. So, I feel like the phenomenon is real. I mean, I'm sure we mentioned this in one of the first ten episodes of our podcast that we ever did, which was basically the idea that the tenth episode was always going to be better than the first episode. But the only way for us to get to the tenth was to get through the first, and then the second, and the third, and the fourth, and the fifth. So that's like another version of this, I think. But yes, I can see all sorts of different ways this is relevant.

Jen: And I'll tell you, in the context in which I experienced second time syndrome with my clients, these are not pieces that are new to them. These are pieces that are being prepared for high stakes scenarios. And most of the time, the root cause of second time syndrome is they feel like they're guessing as to what the other person wants from them. And they don't want to guess wrong, so they make very small or, in some cases, even neutral choices, so as not to misfire. So they make no choice, instead of potentially making the "wrong choice".

Pete: Wow. That is brilliant, the way you sum that up. It feels like a version of FOPO, fear of people's opinion.

Jen: 100%.

Pete: And so, the first...well, the second, I guess, because I used the job interview example. The second example, I could see this come up all the time in the conversations I have with leaders and executives, is, "How do I have difficult conversations with my people or my teams or just with my peer?" And then, the third would be, I guess, "How do I have coaching conversations?" I have a lot of conversations, at the moment, with leaders about, "What does it look like to coach your team and empower your team? And let's like practice coaching, and we have a bunch of ways we can do that." And then also, which is very similar and very related, "What does it look like and sound like to have a difficult conversation? And how do I navigate difficult conversations?" And I think, so often, the fear that is present for people...in fact, I often ask them, and the literal answer they give is, "I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want them to not like me." Basically, all of the ways that you can say, "I'm afraid of what the other person will think of me," they will come up with.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yep.

Pete: And so, to your point, you kind of tiptoe around, maybe, the conversation and you don't say anything at all. You know, my...oh, god...my least favorite approach is, "Have you heard of the shit sandwich," or, "Have you heard of the compliment sandwich?" And I'm like, "Don't do that. Don't do that.”

Jen: Please do not serve me a shit sandwich.

Pete: No. Which, I guess for the like maybe 1% of people who don't know what that is, is, "Oh, I start with a compliment, and then I add a little bit of feedback in the middle, but then I close with a compliment." So it's like, the bad part of the feedback is in the middle. But the compliments become irrelevant, because all that person is looking for or hears, like humans because we have a negativity bias, is we hear the negative. And so, there are all sorts of ways you can go about having those conversations more effectively. I'm pretty sure we've done an episode called Difficult Conversations, I'll pop it in the Box O' Goodies. But yes, this, to me, is where I think second time syndrome can really come in as a leader.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. So, maybe it's worth sharing some of the things I prescribe when...

Pete: Yeah, I want to know. I want to know.

Jen: When a patient has second time syndrome, this is what I prescribe.

Pete: You're so much more creative and effective at having these different ways of reaching second time syndrome. In my mind, it's just like, "Practice more." You know? Or, "Have the hard first conversation, because then you'll learn. And then, the second one will be better." But like, there's got to be a better way.

Jen: Well, let's first just say that we are looking, ultimately, for a long-term strategy to eventually move on from second time syndrome. And then, we're also looking for short-term strategies to be able to move around it in the moment, knowing that you still have more work to do.

Pete: Can I summarize that for my own understanding, just so I make sure I'm clear?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: We want to ultimately get better at being able to do it the first time, in the long run.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: But we also recognize that we're not going to get there overnight, so we need some strategies to trick our brain (to use your words earlier) into thinking it's a second time. Is that right? Am I right?

Jen: That's totally right.

Pete: Okay, great.

Jen: Totally right. So the long-term strategy requires a willingness to get under your own hood, and look around in there, and figure out what it is you're so afraid of.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And a lot of that, you know, has to be tailored to the individual. Sometimes, it's about a status game. Sometimes, it is about imposter syndrome. Sometimes, it's about actually needing to improve certain proficiencies. So, there's not a one-size-fits-all solution. But I will say that in order to, in the long run, be able to overcome and move past second time syndrome, you've got to be willing to get to know yourself better and understand your relationship to other people, so that you can develop that inner strength, that inner courage to actually do what you want to do without needing someone else's permission to do it.

Pete: Yeah. I have some thoughts from how I navigated that myself...I don't know if you have thoughts on how you navigated that for yourself.

Jen: Oh, I want to hear them, Pete.

Pete: Well, this is my, you know, shoot-from-the-hip response based on what you just said. I have this internalized story in my head about getting an A, which comes from, you know, essentially being indoctrinated at school to studying enough to get the A because that means you did a good job, whatever "good job" means. And so, I can see this behavior popping up in all sorts of quirky ways in my life, where I'm constantly seeking and looking for the A. "Did I do the right thing? Did I navigate this in the right way? Did I get reassurance," which, to me, that means, "You just got the A." Like, it comes up all the time. And at some point in the last probably six years...and I credit it to conversations with people like you, to conversations with people like Seth Godin, and reading a bunch of books like Brene Brown, all sorts of those kinds of influential people that we talk about a lot. The reason I talk about them alot is I really credit them with this, almost instilling in my head somehow that in order for me to get the A, I need to ship something or share something or put something out there that is imperfect. And so, rather than the A being, "Let me get it right, so that I nail it," which, to me, is where my second syndrome would come in, I'm actually like, "No, I need to share. That's the A. The A is the messy first share." That's how I've kind of internalized it for myself, I think. Which is, I think is why I've perhaps developed ways to get better at the first time. Does that make sense?

Jen: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Pete: Did I get an A? Did you see, I just did it then. I just did it.

Jen: How meta. It reminds me of the chapter in The Art of Possibility, the "Give Yourself an A" chapter.

Pete: Yeah. That one like hit me in the heart, that chapter.

Jen: So good. It's so interesting, you and I have so much in common and we are just so different in so many ways. So for me, it's not that. For me, it is that when I'm sharing creative work or when I'm asking a client to share creative work, I know that it is the first step in collaboration. And there is nothing more frustrating to me as a collaborator than someone giving me nothing to work with. Because then, I can't plus one it, and that feels like a failed collaboration. So one of the things that helps me when I'm feeling that way, like, "Oh gosh, I don't know what they want," is, I think, "I have to serve." And then, the goal is for them to begin to inspiration volley, but I have to serve the ball to them in order for them to hit it back to me. So that helps me, because I'm like, "Oh, it isn't just about me trying to ace this. It's about me saying, 'Here's what I got. And what do you got? And what do you got?'"

Pete: I love it. And like, me knowing that about you, helps me go, "Okay, Pete. The way to get the A is to start the rally."

Jen: Ah, that's really funny. That's really, really funny.

Pete: Yeah. Wow. So I guess all of that to say like, these are perfect examples of how (what you described earlier) to get better at it in the long run. We need to get like really aware of, "What are our quirks? What are our stories? What are our patterns of behavior," which we all have, obviously.

Jen: Yeah. And then ultimately, we're looking to develop the courage to not have to wait to put our best foot forward...to just do it from the get go.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah.

Jen: Okay, I'll share with you some of these little hacks. And you're going to have to help me. Like I said, this one is harder for me to see outside of the acting and audition context, but you've already done such a brilliant job of putting in a different context so I will look forward to you turning some of these actor hacks into like people hacks.

Pete: No pressure.

Jen: Okay. So one is to make the thing, the scary thing, the second item on the list. So in an audition context, the way an audition is set up is you come into the room, and you do your introductions and pleasantries, you talk to the accompanist if you're singing, and then comes the thing that you're there to do, which is the audition. So if I was trying to help someone with their second time syndrome, I would say that, "The first thing is actually nailing everything that comes before you sing. So, the thing that you are focusing on as the first time is how you're connecting with the people who are sitting behind the table, how you're introducing yourself, how you're talking to the accompanist...that's first time. Even though the actual content of the audition material is different, the thing that you're actually doing is showing them who you are. So, you had your first chance to show them who you are on the introduction, and so the material is just the second time."

Pete: Mmm. I like that. I'm trying to think of how you would put this in context. I think if I was to use the example of a leader having to have a difficult conversation, I think what makes the difficult conversation difficult is (this sounds so obvious) saying the difficult thing. So whether that's, "Jen, I've noticed that you've had a pattern of being late to the last twelve client meetings," whatever it is, like hypothetical example...the hard part is saying that thing. So it's funny, like you said, we have so much in common but come from different worlds. I would actually encourage a leader to, "Instead, rather than come in all guns blazing and share the hard thing, start with a question. Start with empathy. Start with, 'Hey, just checking in. Where are you at at the moment, and what's it like to be you,' or, 'I noticed you were a bit late to that client meeting,' you could just do a version of that, and like, 'I'm curious for your thoughts on what's going on. And like, where are you at with that particular client?' So it's like, instead of having to launch into the full, meaty, hard part, can you start with a question in a place of curiosity to build up momentum?" Like you said, in a conversation it becomes like a volley, so that then the hard thing like just naturally becomes part of the conversation eventually. Does that make sense?

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yep. I love that.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Okay, I'm going to share two more of my actor hacks.

Pete: Please. This is great. I love trying to translate your actor hacks into the corporate world.

Jen: Okay. So when an actor goes in for an audition for a musical, they have a conversation with the person who's playing the piano to make sure that they're on the same page about tempo and making sure that the sheet music is legible and all that. And often, the actor will like tap out the tempo of their song. But they won't sing it, they'll speak it. So, for example, if I'm singing The Wizard and I from Wicked...I'm going to tap my chest, hopefully you can hear this in the mic...I would go, "When I meet the wizard, once I prove my worth." And so, what I tell the client to do is, "Actually sing it, as you're setting the tempo. You're only singing a measure or two, but that's your first time."

Pete: Oh, interesting.

Jen: "And then when you get out into the room to actually do it, that's the second time, because the people behind the table have already heard you sing two measures."

Pete: Nice. I feel like I might have given a version of this in the last answer, perhaps I conflated the two. Which is around, you know, part of, I think...again, I'll just keep using this like very specific difficult conversation example, as a leader. I would say, "Acknowledging the fact that it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation is perhaps how you do this. So literally, you might say something like, 'This is a conversation that feels a little bit uncomfortable for me, and so perhaps it feels uncomfortable for you too.' So it's just like, 'Elephant in the room...we're now acknowledging there is a difficult conversation about to take place.'" And then, like I mentioned earlier, I would start with like maybe a question around that. So it's like, you know, if the elephant in your room is, "They're going to hear me sing. So, how can I quickly let them hear me sing," then the elephant in my room is, "A difficult conversation is about to go down. How can I acknowledge that that's what's about to go down?"

Jen: I love that. Oh my gosh, it just, it brings me lots of joy to think that Elphaba in Wicked is inspiring leaders everywhere to have difficult conversations. That's awesome. Okay, here's the third one. And this is probably my favorite hack, is, "Just decide that you're going to start over. Like start, then stop, then start over." And the way I like to visualize this is, "The experience is like a train that has pulled into the station, and it's about to pull out of the station. If the train is still near the station, you can stop and pull it back and start over. But if the train has left the station, it's too late. So, know where the train is." In an audition situation, it would be like, "You get out there. You have the person start playing. They do a couple of measures. You sing, 'When I meet the wizard,' and then you go, 'Can we start that again? I might have given you the wrong tempo,' or, 'Let me just take that back to the top.'" You know, people are so afraid of "wasting time," but in this case, we're talking about like five seconds. But those five seconds are going to actually make the whole thing so much better. Now, after listening, please don't do this for every single audition. But this is one of those things where it's like, "Oh my gosh, my nerves are just through the roof about this. I'm just committing. I'm going to start, I'm going to sing two measures, and then I'm going to start over."

Pete: Mmm. Yeah, I love that example. Okay, so here goes Pete's...it's like going into the Google Translate for Pete's corporate world.

Jen: Right? Translate now, Pete.

Pete: Beep-beep-beep-beep-beep. I think...it's not exactly the same, but here's how I interpreted that. Which is, a difficult conversation shouldn't be a one-way monologue. It should be a conversation, hence the word "conversation" in "difficult conversation". So can I chunk it down and say, "So I've noticed this particular thing, and like it's becoming a bit of a challenge. And I'm really curious your perspective on the thing, Jen." It's like you chunk down the difficult conversation. So I share a little bit of a chunk, to your point, like two bars of the chunk or two bars of the song, like two bars of the difficult conversation. And then, I check in, "Does that make sense? Like, what's your perspective on it? How are you interpreting this," rather than, "Here is a wall of text," or, "Here is a monologue, and then I get your reaction at the end of that five/ten minute monologue." It's like, "Can I just break it right down to little thirty second chunks, and then it becomes a volley?"

Jen: What I'm loving about all of your examples is that it's actually combo packaging all of the hacks into...it almost feels like a deck of playing cards, and you're shuffling them, and like you could deal them in any number of different hands but you can play all the hands. Like, I just love that.

Pete: Yeah. And I feel like the moment we stop recording, I'm going to think of so many better examples of how this translates. But hopefully, for now, that it's made sense and it's been helpful.

Jen: Well, what you just mentioned is exactly the reason why our listeners should be subscribing to our Box O' Goodies where we share all of the resources and thoughts that we have after we stopped recording.

Pete: After-thoughts.

Jen: So you can go to thelongandtheshortpodcast.com and get yourself subscribed, friends.

Pete: And also, I guess the other thing to just mention is, if you have been listening from a different walk of life or from the same walk of life...I know we have listeners that are creatives, listeners that are actors, we have listeners that are leaders and executives and freelancers and entrepreneurs...and you're like, "Oh, you completely missed how this translates into this specific example," please send it to us. We love hearing from you. hello@thelongandtheshortpodcast.com is our email, and we might even weave it into our next conversation.

Jen: You mean our second time episode about second time syndrome? Can't wait.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.