The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 243 - W.A.I.T.

Transcript:

Jen: Hi, Pete.

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: I've got something for you today that I think you're really going to like.

Pete: Oh my gosh, some sort of goodie.

Jen: It's an acronym.

Pete: Oh, you know me too well, Jennifer. I do enjoy a good acronym.

Jen: I know you love an acronym. This one spells W.A.I.T.: Why am I talking?

Pete: So not W.E.I.G.H.T., W.A.I.T. Why am I talking? Oh my goodness, I already love where this is going. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay. I know where I first heard this, but in googling it to try to figure out the origin, it's attributed to too many people. So...

Pete: Oh, it's one of those.

Jen: Yeah, it's one of those...no idea where it actually came from. But I heard it from a person who was giving a presentation on communication skills, and she was saying, you know, "Write it at the top of every page when you're sitting down to meet with someone, as a reminder to yourself to open yourself to listening and really taking things in. Why am I talking?"

Pete: Yeah, okay. So I was intrigued by the, perhaps the punch line because I see many. Like, is it a prompt to help us listen more? Is it a prompt to help us be very intentional with what we're actually saying? Is it a prompt to not ramble and do monologues, maybe? It's probably all the above, I'm guessing.

Jen: Well, that is exactly where my mind went when I first heard it, too. Because I was like, "Oh, yes, yes, yes. When you're in a dialogue with someone and they have the floor, don't interrupt them. Like, let them talk." But then the flip side is, "When it is appropriate to be the one talking, get clear on why you're talking. What are you trying to do? What sort of change are you trying to affect? How are you trying to help people feel? What are you trying to teach people? Like, get clear on why you are talking."

Pete: Yes, yeah. This is very top of mind for me recently because I've been running some workshops with some executives at a big company, and we've inevitably ended up spending time on how might we communicate more effectively, just because that is the nature of a lot of leadership work and roles. And so, this feels very top of mind. I also was just thinking, I was having a conversation with a friend on the weekend and he was telling this story, and then literally halfway through he goes, "I don't know why I'm telling this story. This is a dumb story. Let's just move on." He had a moment where he waited, like he realized, "This story adds nothing. I'm going stop. Let's move on." It was very funny. But actually, I think what he was doing is he was practicing W.A.I.T.

Jen: Yes. I recently was a guest on a podcast, it's called Obsessed with the Best.

Pete: Great title.

Jen: I really enjoy it. It's a really fun podcast to listen to. But it was so funny, they sent me an email saying, "If there's anything you want cut from the episode, please let us know within," I can't remember if it was twenty-four or forty-eight hours from the time of our recording session. And I emailed them back and I was like, "There's nothing I feel weird about. Like, I feel fine with everything I said. But we had a whole part of a conversation, like after the fact I was like, 'This adds no value to anyone's life,' so please feel free to cut that section. In that case, I did not know why I was talking."

Pete: You're very good at that, though. Like, I would say...we have shared before, we do pretty minimal editing or cutting or like scripting of this podcast. No scripting.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And our editor, Sarah, does an amazing job at dealing with our four attempts at trying to tee up an episode, because sometimes it takes four go's for us to shake it out and get to the fourth pancake.

Jen: Are you talking about this episode, Pete? Are you talking about this one?

Pete: It only took us four go's, but we've teed it up and we're rolling. We're rolling. But the thing you're really good at is every now and then I'll hear an episode back and you'll hear an episode back, and you'll go, "Oh, there's like a ninety second part that adds no value to the actual conversation," and sometimes I miss it. So I think you're really good at considering this question of, "Why am I talking," or like thinking about W.A.I.T. and, "Is it adding any substance or weight, W-E-I-G-H-T, to the conversation?"

Jen: Well, that is my theater training in practice, because part of what we do is cut things a lot. You know, we get in to...well, a lot of it happens in rehearsal. But one of the most fascinating and anxiety-provoking moments during a show's evolution is the preview period where you're putting things on stage in front of an audience, and you become very aware in real-time with egg on your face while standing on a stage that something is not working and it needs to be cut. And the worst thing you can do is keep in something that needs to be cut.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Even if it's something you love, even if you're like, "I really enjoy it," if it is not serving the ultimate purpose of the story that we're trying to tell, it's got to go.

Pete: Mmm. Okay. So I feel like this is good to think about when we're reviewing or editing or looking back at things, like you sort of shared. And it feels like a great example of having clarity in what something is for, clarity in what success looks like, or clarity in, "What am I trying to communicate," and then almost looking at everything through the filter of that particular response to that question. So, I love that on reflection. And I think the hard part, the challenge like you mentioned here as writing W.A.I.T. at the top of the page, I think the hard part is doing it in the moment. So in the examples that we're talking about, like listening back to the podcast or, you know, doing a show and then like reflecting back on it or having the reflection in the moment, there's an element of, "I have permission and time to look back at something."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Whereas sometimes we're in like the middle of a conversation with a friend or a client or a producer or someone important, perhaps, and we want to leave a good impression, and it can be difficult in the moment, I think and I imagine, to be able to ask yourself this question, answer it, and then communicate through that filter. So like, I feel like there are some like pretty tactical techniques we could talk about that perhaps help with that. Does that make sense?

Jen: Yes. The first thing that comes to mind is two simple words: Slow down.

Pete: Yes. Say more.

Jen: Well, I often have clients who are going into these high pressure, high stakes situations, final callbacks for a principal role in a Broadway show or something like that. And they will report back to me what happened, but they will often include, "...and I couldn't stop talking. Like, they asked me how I was doing, and I was so nervous that I just kept talking and talking and talking until someone said, 'We probably should get to the material now.'"

Pete: Oh my god, that's hilarious.

Jen: I actually think it's a good thing when it is a true dialogue, but it's when it's a monologue that it's a an issue. And most of the time, it's because the person is moving so quickly.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: They're thinking so quickly. They're speaking so quickly that they are unable to apply the brakes. So if you're going into a high stakes situation, maybe before you even enter it, just give yourself the prompt, "Slow down."

Pete: I'm obsessed with that, "Slow down," idea. Because I think what...I can't remember if I've read this somewhere or if I've just made this assertion up myself, so bear with me. I feel like what's happening when you're communicating in dialogue, i.e. without a script, is your brain is doing two things at once. A., it's like thinking about what you're saying and communicating what you're saying. But then, B., it's trying to think about what's coming next and what you're going to think about next. So the quicker you do the first part, the harder it is for your brain to do the second part and for it to even realize that you've been talking for long enough because you're just so focused on talking. And so if we give ourselves permission to slow down our dialogue, we actually give our brain permission to, I think, even like unconsciously, clock the fact that, "We've been talking for two minutes or one minute, or we haven't asked a question for the last five minutes." Like, I feel like by slowing down, you give your brain actually a chance to catch it.

Jen: Yeah. This preemptive prompt, I think, is just a really solid way to move through situations that make you nervous.

Pete: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, well, another one that sticks out is...I mean, this is kind of what the prompt literally says, "Why am I talking?" We've been talking about being intentional in what we say, based on that prompt.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: But I think the other thing you mentioned in the intro or what you were sort of alluding to is, "Listen more," essentially.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And there's so many things within that. Like, I've often thought about this idea of holding space as opposed to listening, because holding space is active. You know, I often like literally do a a cup with my two hands when I'm saying to someone like, "When you hold space, you literally like cup. Like, you're holding something. It's weighty. It takes intention and effort and energy." Versus listening, which feels kind of passive. And often, what happens when people are listening is they're then thinking about the next thing they're about to say and looking for an opportunity to say it. Whereas holding space, in my mind, what often happens is...you know, you and I do this quite a lot. It's like, I might think of something, in holding space for you, and I'll just write it down. But often, I'll never even get to it because where the conversation has gone, based on what you're saying, is in an entirely different direction. And so, I'm like, "Okay. It doesn't matter. I don't need to say that anymore. That's like...that point is irrelevant," and being okay with that.

Jen: Yeah. I want to spin this in a different direction for a second.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: When I work with people who are doing public speaking, one of the ways I help them see how emphasis can be really impactful on the way they're communicating with an audience is to give them a sentence and have them read it multiple times, emphasizing a different word with each pass. And it seems to me, this particular sentence can show you four different angles if you do that. So, I'm just going do that for us real quick.

Pete: Okay. Yes.

Jen: "Why am I talking?" "Why am I talking?" "Why am I talking?" "Why am I talking?"

Pete: Oh, that's so good.

Jen: Right?

Pete: Wow. Isn't that...that's quite profound.

Jen: I think so too.

Pete: Yeah. And all of them are kind of alluding to a similar thing, but in a slightly different way.

Jen: Right. And I think it opens up room for other possibilities. Like, I particularly like the last one, "Why am I talking?"

Pete: Right.

Jen: I could be doing any number of other things. Talking is the choice I'm making.

Pete: Yes. Yes, exactly. And then, I like the one that's, "Why am I talking?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: Because it's like, "Is this an opportunity for you to be talking, or is it actually that the other person could be talking? Or the other people in the room could be talking? Why are you the one talking?" That's good.

Jen: This reminds me of...and of course, because I'm talking about it right now, I cannot remember the actual term. But there is a term for what happens to a group of people when the "leader" speaks first, and how it sort of pushes the conversation in a certain direction or almost contaminates the ideas in the room.

Pete: Oh my gosh, I can't think of the phenomenon. But I know exactly....it's Brene Brown, talks about, "Turn and learn." Is that what it's called, because of this phenomenon?

Jen: Yes. So let's find it and whoever gets there first, we'll drop it in the Box O' Goodies. But it's making me think that, as a leader, it is vital to ask yourself this question. Because unless there's a really good answer for, "Why am I talking," you might actually be creating a situation that you don't want to create, by the act of talking. Because people look to you, you have high status or you have the last word or the buck stops with you or whatever it may be, that because you're talking, other people might actively choose not to talk or they might choose to repeat what you have said.

Pete: Yeah. Yes. I mean, I feel like an oversimplified generalization (which we need to be careful about), but I feel like for so many of the leaders I work with and executives I work with, they could afford to talk less.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And actually, by talking less, they might actually find that...well, it has so many benefits, right? Like, A., you make the person on the other side of the table feel seen and heard and like they belong, because they're the ones able to talk and share and have ideas. You also enable them to feel empowered and energized, because they're the ones coming up with ideas. They're not just taking orders. You also might discover things that you never would have discovered if you were the one talking. The amount of times...I've mentioned this on the podcast, my favorite break-out activity to do is get two people together, two leaders together, and have them switch roles. One role is, you are the listener. You are only able to ask questions. And the other role is obviously responding to the questions. After five minutes, you switch roles. And every single time I do this activity, someone says, "Oh my gosh. I just discovered something that I never would have known, had I not taken five minutes to practice W.A.I.T." I think that's a version of practicing W.A.I.T.

Jen: Yeah, agreed.

Pete: It's, "I'm not talking. I'm actually the one asking you a question. And so why I'm talking is, I'm asking you a question to find out more," and inevitably, I find out more.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. It's so simple, but so actionable, and so potentially profound.

Pete: Yeah. And so hard. I mean, I feel like the other thing we haven't talked about here is like, the thing that that acronym alludes to, is also being comfortable with silence.

Jen: Yes. This is something you and I have spoken about in past episodes. And when people ask us how we are able to keep doing this 250-something episodes later, and how we are able to do it with such minimal editing, the answer has often been, "Because we are comfortable sitting in silence. Like, we let each other finish. We land the plane. And then, we start down the next runway."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Now, what the listeners don't hear is that maybe if we sat in silence for five seconds, maybe we shortened that to three. But that's really the only editing we do. We're not really talking over each other. We're not stopping and starting. There are zero edits for "umms" and "uhhs" because we go slowly.

Pete: Yeah. And we sit in silence. You're right. So the other thing, I think, if I use one of the Jen Waldman-isms that I really like, is like, you know, in our conversations and I feel like in some of the conversations we're talking about, whether it's with a leader or with a casting director or an actor or whoever, it's a volley. You know, like a rally.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: So I hit it to you, and then you speak, and then you hit it back to me, and then I speak, and then I hit it back.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so, I really liked what you said, it's a dialogue versus a monologue. I just think that is so profound for me. And like, yeah, dialogue would suggest two people, as opposed to monologue which would suggest one person. And yeah, I just think that's such a vital way to think about these things.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: You sort of jokingly mentioned in the intro that I would love this acronym, or that I love acronyms, and I really do. And I'm running a session literally tomorrow, where part of what we're going to talk about is asking yourselves the question of, "What is this communication for? Who is this communication for," to really think about, "How do I communicate in a way that's more intentional?" And I think I'm going to add this, of like, "Can I ask myself the question, 'Why am I talking,' before any given communication?"

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.