The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 245 - Perspective

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: You know that saying, "Context is everything"?

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Jen: Well, don't worry, I'm not going to try to debunk it. I'm just going to try to add to it, because I heard something today that really put things into perspective, which is the relationship between context and perspective.

Pete: Context and perspective...okay, I think I follow. I thought this was going to be a, "I disagree with this saying," moment, but it's not. It's a build. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Oh no, I couldn't possibly disagree with that. Because context is indeed everything.

Pete: That's why I was like, "How is she going to disagree with this? This is going to be hilarious."

Jen: No, no, no, no, no. But I heard this from a totally different perspective today. So I was listening to Getting To Yes, And, which is the podcast from Second City. Actually, Second City Works, which is their applied improv, like using improv in life and work podcast.

Pete: Oh, very cool.

Jen: It's so excellent, highly recommend. Anyway, the host, Kelly Leonard, was talking about comedy and the importance of context in making comedy actually funny. And what he said really made me think about leadership. So what he said was, "When you're doing improv, improv is perspective taking. So you're taking suggestions from the audience, which is what provides the context for the audience to view the work you're doing to find it funny. Stand up, on the other hand, is perspective giving. In order for the audience to find the jokes funny, at the beginning of a set, the comedian needs to actually share their perspective, who they are, how they see the world in order to provide the context for the jokes to land. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that is so interesting. As a leader, sometimes you are perspective taking, and that's the context. And sometimes, you are perspective giving, and that helps set the context." I just never thought about it that way before.

Pete: Me neither. I'm like processing this in real time....so the difference in perspective taking versus perspective giving, huh.

Jen: So, let me hypothesize a scenario.

Pete: Alrighty.

Jen: You talk about this when you talk about difficult conversations. So, a difficult conversation is not stand up. A difficult conversation is improv.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Because the person comes in, and instead of saying, "Let me tell you my perspective on you," your suggestion is always, "Open with a question."

Pete: Always.

Jen: Do some perspective taking. And that way, you will have a better sense of context, so you'll be able to understand all of the information that's going to come next.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Whereas, a product launch is perspective giving.

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: And if you don't give your perspective, then the people who are in the audience for your launch are not going to know what the heck they're looking at, why it's important, why it matters, how it helps build toward the future.

Pete: Alrighty, now I follow. Okay, this is interesting. My immediate response is, I feel like in a leadership context, perhaps too many leaders are doing perspective giving and not enough perspective taking.

Jen: That is my hypothesis as well.

Pete: That's my hypothesis, based on just learning about these two different ideas right now in the moment. But just even the way you framed, you know, difficult conversations as being like improv, it's like literally a sentence I've heard myself say out loud to other people. Like we've talked about, like really great coaching is, you know, an exercise in improv because you don't necessarily know what's about to happen and where the conversation is going to go. You're taking the perspective of what's been given to you, and then you're reacting to it and asking a question based on it. And so much of the work I do at the moment with leaders is around helping them build their coaching muscle, helping them better lead their teams, helping them navigate difficult conversations, i.e. helping them get better at taking perspectives. So often, I think this happens a lot in organizations, you have a really high-performing individual who is high-performing because they're perhaps a subject matter expert. And as a result of being a subject matter expert, they're really used to sharing their ideas, i.e. giving the perspective, giving the context. And not because they don't want to but just because they've been so relied upon because of their subject matter expertise, they haven't trained the muscle as much of taking perspective and gathering feedback and seeking different perspectives from one another and being more curious and having more humility. Like all of this, this feels like a, yeah, a fun way to play around with helping leaders get better at taking perspective more.

Jen: It's also made me think about distinctions you and I have made in the past between being a coach, being a mentor, being a teacher.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Like, there's so much perspective shifting that has to go on. Like I'm thinking right now, I'm about to launch my summer program, The Reboot, and I wear multiple hats in there. The first thing I have to do is be a perspective taker, because I can't really coach anyone if I don't understand where they're coming from.

Pete: Right. Right.

Jen: But then there are times where my experience and expertise is needed, and so I am perspective giving in those moments when I have experience that someone else doesn't have and my experience could help them make stronger decisions for themselves. I've got to be a prospective giver, instead of saying, "But what do you think?" Well, they don't know what they think because they don't have any experience in that area. So then, I need to give my perspective.

Pete: Right.

Jen: But in order to know when to give my perspective, I also have to have taken perspective.

Pete: Totally agree. I had a conversation with someone last week who had done a recent course on executive coaching, and we were talking about the different things that she learned throughout this course. And she was talking about and asking me about my experience in...okay, so obviously, you know, the by-the-book way of coaching is you ask questions, you provoke insights, you are very much in that taking perspective. And she was kind of asking me if there's ever a time when I feel like you need to switch actually to (we didn't call it this) giving perspective (it was more like sharing an idea or giving your opinion). And I was hypothesizing that, "Yes, I think you do. I think there is a time and a place to recognize." And this, to me, is a skill and a practice. And that's why I love the art of, I guess, you know, leadership coaching and executive coaching, is because it's constantly trying to figure out in the moment, "Is this the moment to offer a perspective, i.e. give context? Or is this still, you know, my default state, which is around taking perspective and asking a question?" And I was sharing this example that I've thought about, that I've seen the asking questions go too far, i.e. the taking perspective go too far.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: When someone is like, "Okay, I'm a coach. You've labeled me a coach, so all I'm going to do is ask questions."

Jen: Right.

Pete: Like, someone will say something like, "Hey, I'm looking for that PDF that you emailed us. Can you point out where I might find it?" And the coach will say, "Where might you find it," or, "Where do you think you might find it?"

Jen: Oh my gosh. No.

Pete: Like, this is not a coaching moment. This is a like, "Can you point me in the right direction?" And if you go for the taking perspective, if you go for that curious coaching posture in a moment that doesn't require it, it actually becomes incredibly infuriating for the person. Like, "Hey Jen, can you send me that video that you mentioned about the imposter syndrome," and someone's like, "Where might you find that video?" Like, "What are you talking about? Just send it to me." So I feel like there's a healthy tension between those two, and we need to kind of almost bounce between the two quite often.

Jen: And the flip-side is true as well.

Pete: Right. Yes, yes, yes.

Jen: Like, there is nothing more frustrating than being like, "And now we are perspective taking. Like, let's brainstorm together," and then one person is like, "I shall give you my perspective, and no one else may speak."

Pete: 100%. So I was sharing this with you yesterday, one of my clients, this amazing CEO by the name of Maddie, suggested a show to me the other day. She's like, "I think you'll love this show. It's called Shrinking." And it's got Jason Segel in it, who I quite like. He's a funny guy. And it's about a psychologist, who Jason Segel plays, that kind of just gets fed up with being the taker, the taking perspective, i.e. fed up with like, "So how does that make you feel, Jen? And I'm a therapist, so I'm going to like help you get clear on your own struggles so that you can build a pathway forward." And he, it's very comical, he flips to like...he almost talks about it as like, "I just want to shake my clients sometimes, because I'm like, 'You need to do this. You need to break up with this person or you need to quit this job,'" and he kind of flips into the giver. He's like, "Here's my opinion." And at the start, it goes well, and then it starts to like completely fall apart because he's giving too much. But it's just a, it's a really comical way of looking at this distinction, is like asking questions versus giving and sharing ideas.

Jen: You know, in the context in which I heard this, they were obviously talking about comedy and like making sure that your punch lines are landing. And in like a difficult conversation, you're not necessarily like trying to get someone to laugh, but you are trying to get things to land.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And as an acting teacher, I often talk about, "How do we ensure that what we're doing is actually landing on the audience? How can we ensure that what we're offering is legible enough that they understand it?" So even though we're not using a punch line or we're not trying to get a laugh, I do like the idea that either taking perspective or giving perspective is helping the ideas to land.

Pete: Hmm, yeah. It's so true. It's like seeing someone give a keynote that's not landing, and it's just because they're perhaps giving so much perspective without any consideration for who's in the room. I mean, this, to me, is like why we talk about effective communication being so important and coming from a place of, "Who's it for?"

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Like, this question you and I have talked about many times, and Seth Godin has famously written about, "Who's it for," and, "What's it for?" And the reason it's so important is it helps us be more intentional with how we communicate things, i.e. helps us land the message we're trying to land. So if I understand the people that are in the room, then I can understand that they might be interested in certain things. I guess the distinction perhaps in an improv audience versus a stand up audience sometimes is, well, usually people go to a show knowing they're getting improv versus people go to a show knowing they're getting stand up. So automatically, the story they're telling themselves about what's about to happen is slightly different, so that then enables the comedian to, you know, approach it in a certain way.

Jen: It's making me think about, early in my keynote career, I was so reluctant or hesitant to talk about my Broadway experience.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And what I came to understand, as the years went on, is that sharing my Broadway experience actually provides the perspective that I'm coming from, which provides the context for every single point I'm going to make.

Pete: Right. Gosh, isn't...I feel like this must be common, because I have done the same thing. Like I joked about the person who, you know, would try and coach a moment where someone was like, "Where's the resource for how to be a better coach," or whatever the example is, and like over-indexing on the taking perspective. I've definitely been guilty of that myself, and almost forgotten about all of the things that I've done in the past that actually are relevant to share to give perspective.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And, you know, in recent times in particular, I've been like, "Oh yeah, that project I worked on when I was twenty-four was actually super important and relevant to the context of the conversation we're about to have. There's a bunch of learnings that I had back then." And for some reason, I've like compartmentalized them and sort of forgotten about those, or put them in a box somewhere and been like, "That's not important. I'm here to, you know, ask questions and hold space," and kind of over-indexed on that.

Jen: It's making me think about how we actually could be more thoughtful when selecting the people who are going to be our mentors. I just had this comical idea come up in my head of like, "I'm looking for a gymnastics coach." And so, I find a coach and they're like, "How do you feel you do a backflip?" It's like, "I kind of need to know that you have a perspective that provides a context that we can work together inside."

Pete: So true. Yeah.

Jen: Not that you can only coach with people who are experts in your field. But sometimes, you do have to coach with people who are experts in your field, like if you want to be a gymnast.

Pete: Right. If you want to do a backflip, probably speak to someone who understands how to do a backflip. Yeah.

Jen: "So you want to go bungee jumping? How do you think you'd connect the cord?"

Pete: "How might you connect the cord?" Oh my god, no. Ah, that's funny. But true, yeah. I think that, you know, it's a form of social proof in a way.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: Perspective giving is about a social proof on how you think about or navigate or attempt to solve a particular challenge, whether that's bungee jumping or comedy or anything in between. And if we are, you know, the customer of someone who is offering a service like that, I think whether we realize it or not, there are certain contexts we like to have that helps us make that purchasing decision. If you're seeking an executive coach, for example, it might be that they're not necessarily giving you their perspective on all of the challenges you have, because that's not what a coach often does. But they'll give you the perspective on how they think about coaching and leadership development in general, they'll give you the perspective of their philosophy for navigating a coaching relationship. So there is a give there somewhere, which then informs the decisions we make.

Jen: Yeah. You could take this and run in many, many different directions with it.

Pete: Definitely.

Jen: But it all seems to like come back to context is everything. And if we don't understand the context that we're working in, we aren't going to understand each other.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.