The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 246 - Containers

Transcript:

Pete: Hi, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: Well, she's gone and done it again. Brené Brown has articulated something that I've been trying to articulate, but just far more succinctly and eloquently and accurately.

Jen: That's because she is Queen Brené Brown.

Pete: Right. So the thing she summarized, which I want to dive into with you, is this idea of containers and how we might create them as intentional places of learning. And I want to talk about this with you because you are a teacher, a coach, a learner, and I feel like you'll enjoy this.

Jen: I will. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Here's me preempting what you're going to enjoy and what you're going to not enjoy.

Jen: But you know me so well, at this point.

Pete: It's true.

Jen: I already enjoy it. I'm already in.

Pete: I'm already having fun. That's true. Okay, so Brené Brown (the amazing, like you said, Queen Brené Brown), I heard her talking about this on Adam Grant's podcast WorkLife, which was sort of like this three-way conversation with Simon Sinek as well. Anyway, one of the questions Adam asked at one point was around, it particularly got my ears pricked up because it was around, "How do we help leaders,"...I'm paraphrasing, but it was like really practical and tactically, "How might we help our leaders develop the skills needed to be a leader?" So I was like, "Oh my god, I want to hear what they say about this." And Brené Brown gave this really great answer, which I'll paraphrase (and I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies). But it was along the lines of, "Well, it's all about skill building." And I was like, "Yes, Brené. Absolutely. Everything to do with being a leader is a skill. Leadership is a skill. Like, I am onboard, Brené. This is great." And then, she said something to the effect of, "This is what we do in our organization when we go into companies, we create containers in order for people to learn. Because in order for people to be able to learn skills, they need spaces to be able to learn them." And I feel like that's like...it was almost an obvious throwaway comment. But I feel like it's exactly the articulation of a lot of the work I've been doing, at the moment, in companies. And the reason I think it's so interesting, at least from my perspective, is it's remarkable how rare it is for people to have containers to learn new skills, in so many contexts. Now, I feel like in your context and in your world, it's almost not remarkable at all, because your people and your community (and I'm curious for your thoughts) are like almost constantly going into new spaces and containers in order to be able to hone new skills and work on that craft. So I just feel like this idea of having containers, and then working within containers or in the pursuit of developing skills is super rich. What do you think?

Jen: It is super rich. And on the one hand, your assumption is right, that I've been in many wonderful spaces where leaders have created the container for learning and development. And it seems like the theater should always be that way. But no, my friend. Because on the other hand, I've been in horrifyingly poorly lead spaces where learning is not possible, where sharing, where growing, where development is not possible. So, I've seen both.

Pete: That's interesting. And both, you might still consider containers. But like, just because it's a container, doesn't mean it's effective at producing skill development and/or conversations that lead to skill development.

Jen: Yes. I think it's important to recognize that right now, I'm just imagining a fridge with containers in it. Some that are well-sealed and providing the environment for the food to remain fresh, and some that have little leaks and everything is moldy and crusty and shan't be named.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Love it. Okay. So then it becomes, I guess, maybe a conversation around like, "How might we create the conditions within this container, that we want to foster the learning that we're hoping to foster?" In some of the context I'm working in at the moment, I've been doing these intentionally interactive and I would say almost short (in the traditional sense of leadership development) workshops, which are like ninety minutes. And every single one I've run in the last month...which is a lot. I'm basically running one a day at the moment. And in almost every single one, someone says some version of, "Gosh, we just never get the opportunity to have conversations like this."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so, in my mind, it's like Brené articulated what I was grappling with. I hadn't put words to what I've heard, which is the leader is saying something like, "I don't have enough containers to be developing these skills." Because like many of us, often leaders are so busy with the day-to-day bouncing between meeting to meeting to meeting or Zoom call to Zoom call to Zoom call, ticking things off their list, getting emails done, talking to their people, but very infrequently pausing to think intentionally about, "Huh. What's a leadership skill that I am wanting to develop, like coaching or like communicating more effectively, and how might I practice that for sixty minutes or ninety minutes?" And so in these spaces, which are quite rare for the participants, they're like getting value in kind of the fact that it just exists in the first place. Like, the mere fact that there's a container is valuable. It almost doesn't matter...it does, but it almost doesn't matter what happens within the container. It's just the mere fact that we can even enter this container and have this conversation, is like, "Oh, that's value in its own right."

Jen: Right. It's making me think about how important it is to actually name what the container is for. I mean, we're going back to our golden rule, right, "Who is it for? What is it for?" But it's so important to name what the space is for, what the expectations are, what the guidelines and parameters are, and what's possible in there. And it's making me think about what happens when the opposite is true, where someone offers a container but doesn't say what it is. Like when someone says, "My doors always open," and then nobody ever goes to talk to them because they don't understand what the container is. "Your door is always open, but what are the rules of engagement in here?"

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Being intentional with communicating what the container actually is. You know, I think about the visual that you described, in like the fridge. I think that's one way of visualizing it. The other one I think about is like when I was in primary school, we used to have tubs. Every student would have a tub, and it was like in a row along a shelf. And all of the tubs looked the same. They were like this beautiful mustard yellow plastic, ugly, ugly tubs. So everyone had like the same container or tub, the same four little walls. But what you did within that container was entirely up to you. But what had been defined for us was like the size and the parameters and where it goes and where it belongs. So yes, I'm obsessed with this idea of like, "How do we articulate and define what the container is, and what the rules of engagement are within that container?" Is that...like, how do you think about that in the containers you create? Because you're creating containers for learning all the time, all day, every day.

Jen: Yeah. I've got a big container, and then I've got sub-containers within the big container.

Pete: Here we go. Here we go. It's like a babushka doll of containers.

Jen: Right? So I've got the container that is the studio, which is a place where you can come to if you're an artist who wants to learn and grow with other artists. It is a learning container. But within that, I have these different offerings, different workshops, different classes, different coachings, different programs. And each one of those is its own container, in that...I have a class I run called Studio Workshop, for example, where I say, "This is a creative playground for you to explore, experiment, and push the boundaries of your own potential. That's what it's for."

Pete: Nice.

Jen: So then I have another space called Callback Workshop, where I say, "This is a place for you to work on the skills that you need in order to elevate your work to the next level before you share it with other people."

Pete: Hmm, nice.

Jen: So, the purpose is really clear and everyone is on the same page. And then within that, there are rules of engagement. There's how we deal with each other, "What is my role? What is their role," etc. But everyone is clear about what we are there to do.

Pete: Yes, yes, yes. Do you ever think about...I didn't mean for this to be me interviewing you...but do you ever think about, within that container or setting that container, do you think about environment or semiotics that help frame that container for you? Like, I know that you already have such a beautiful space already in your studio, so maybe this is less relevant. But I'm just wondering, do you ever think about that?

Jen: I change the setup of the room for each of the classes, and it's different.

Pete: Tell me more. Tell me more. What's the intention behind that?

Jen: It helps us get clear on what we're doing there. So for Studio Workshop, for example, there are no tables. It's just the chairs, and that's where you sit when we're in observer roles. But we start the class with everyone in the working space together. And then when we're ready for people to go up one at a time, we all go and sit in the chairs. For my Callback Workshop, I set up a table in front of the chairs so that we are simulating what an audition room looks like. I've got two music stands over to the side with two chairs there, that's where the readers would sit. So for each class, I'm trying to create a container that is appropriate to the activity that we are engaging in, in that space.

Pete: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's so good. So one way I've tried to do this in, say, a leadership corporate context is, I very intentionally don't use slides in any of my sessions. And I'll often just say that out loud, almost as like a joke, is, "Don't worry, we have ninety minutes together and I have absolutely no slides. This is not going to be a death by PowerPoint." And it's kind of shocking, how much of a pattern interrupt that is for people.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Because especially in corporate land, often people are just bouncing between meeting to meeting to meeting. And in every single meeting, someone has a slide deck. I'm not exaggerating. Some of them are actually important and necessary, and always they're well-intentioned, but my assertion is they're very often unnecessary.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And/or could be best done as a leave behind or a pre-read. So one way I try and create the container or create the conditions for learning in a leadership context is, "Alright everyone, there's no slideshow. We are going to have a conversation. This is Socratic. This is discussion-based and practical." And automatically, just by saying that and framing that in the first like few minutes and people like looking at each other instead of looking at a slideshow, you can see the posture and the tone start to shift, and then the conversation changes as a result. So it's, I guess that's an example of like digital environment or virtual environment and the semiotics that creates a different conversation.

Jen: I love that so much.

Pete: It's also the reason why so many, you know, leadership teams often have offsites, is they take the team to a different site because they recognize that the environment will change the conversation.

Jen: Yes, an offsite is a container.

Pete: Exactly. Exactly.

Jen: Yeah. I'm just saying for the record that we should do a whole episode on slide decks and PowerPoint, and how it's become an unfortunate standard, and why it's become that way, and how we can disrupt it.

Pete: Alright. I love that idea.

Jen: So I also listened to that episode of WorkLife, and one of the things Brené said is that she has given up the term "safe space" in favor of "brave space". And I also gave up...maybe I didn't give it up entirely, but I don't use "safe space" to describe what we're trying to do at the studio anymore. We've come up with our own term that is built on our own values, and we say that we are creating what we call a "grace space" in an effort to make the space safer for all. So for us, "g.r.a.c.e." is an acronym that is built around our studio values, which is growth mindset, respect, artistry, confidentiality, and empathy. And that when you enter JWS, when you enter the studio, it is our expectation that you will help us to create the grace space. And that is the container. And we explain what each one of those five bullet points means, in the context of the space that we're in together for today's purpose. So just offering that up, because I was excited to hear her say that she wasn't using "safe space" anymore.

Pete: Yeah. And just the, I mean, again, it's like the level of intentionality she's bringing to her containers and the level of intentionality you're bringing to your containers then shapes the nature of the conversation and shapes the nature of the learning. So much of this is around thinking intentionally about the containers we're creating, and I feel like even just being aware of the fact that we're in containers or entering containers or exiting containers. I would put a lot of this down to the fact that so much of our work and life has been distributed over the last three years and will continue to be, and so we're hopping on a Zoom call and we don't even realize perhaps the we're entering a new container, or we don't even set the intention of ourselves to be like, "Oh, I'm the one running this next meeting. How can I think of it as a container? How can I get clear on who it's for and what it's for, and then intentionally create the conditions to get the objective that I'm hoping to get?" Instead, we just kind of roll from one meeting to the next (I'm using the proverbial we), and like there's a slideshow and there's people and like, I'm not even thinking about this one versus this one. I'm just kind of rolling and going through the motions.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: So it's like an awareness of the fact that we are constantly in containers, I think.

Jen: Indeed. Now, I think in what Brené was sharing, she was asserting that it is the leader's responsibility to create the container. I would add to that, that anyone who enters the container, it is their co-responsibility to maintain it, grow it, develop it, because the leader can only do so much by themselves.

Pete: Yes. And also be aware of if and when a conversation or an idea or a topic or a behavior goes outside the confines of that container. If someone tries to bring in a topic, for example, about something that's completely unrelated to the purpose of that container or that conversation (which happens a lot), it's about, "Can we, as a collective, bring it back to the core purpose of why we're here?"

Jen: Exactly.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: Which reinforces the idea that the space is doing what we all said it was going to do for us.

Pete: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So I don't know, maybe this is obvious to many of our listeners, given how brilliant they all are. But I just found this framing really particularly helpful. I think about workshops a lot. I run a lot of workshops and I think about being intentional in the workshops I create, but I just hadn't for some reason thought about the idea of them being containers, and that one really important aspect of a container is it's conducive to learning. And so for me, that like mental model, that framing has just been so helpful, hence why I wanted to share.

Jen: Yeah, it's a juicy nugget. Thank you, Brené Brown, once again, for your wisdom. Keep the pearls coming, Brené.

Pete: Thanks, Brené. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.