The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 252 - Like-Hearted

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: For years and years and years, I have used the phrase "like-minded people" to talk about the kinds of environments I like to be in. And I didn't know, until about a week ago, that that is not accurate. I heard someone use the phrase "like-hearted", and everything changed for me.

Pete: "Like-hearted" versus "like-minded". Yep. Alright, this sounds juicy. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I can make assumptions about this, but I want to hear how you think about the difference between these two.

Jen: Well, I guess why I had leaned towards "like-minded" is I guess it's a phrase I knew. It's a phrase I've heard other people use.

Pete: It's a common phrase.

Jen: Yeah. And it's sort of just suggested that we share similar beliefs and values. But what I've come to understand after hearing someone use the word "like-hearted" is that what I actually want, in an effort to grow and evolve and expand, is to be in spaces with like-hearted people who do share values and care about things and people the way I care about them. But I actually don't want to be with like-minded people all the time. I want to be with people who think differently, have a different perspective, come at things from a different direction, so I can learn from them and be challenged by them. But still, at the core, understand that we care about the same things.

Pete: Well, and care about one another to a degree, too, I imagine.

Jen: Exactly. Yeah.

Pete: It's like, you can disagree but still respect one another.

Jen: Yes. And especially if you are someone who cares about solving problems, being with like-minded people, you're never going to solve anything. Because if you had the solution, you would have applied it already. So being with someone else who's like-minded, it's like swimming in a sea of confirmation bias.

Pete: Oh, yeah. Which is what everybody does, we all do, the moment we pick up our phones and open any form of social media. Right?

Jen: Right.

Pete: It's like we're surrounded by the people that we choose to follow and the algorithms that then boost that are so often, not always but so often, like-minded. I really like this distinction between "like-minded" and "like-hearted" because I think you're right, if you are surrounded by people who constantly are affirming and confirming the things that you believe, there are so many missed opportunities to learn and grow and stretch and change your thinking about certain things. Because everywhere you look, you're like, "Yeah, I'm right about everything."

Jen: Right. Exactly. It's so funny, I can't believe I had never landed on this before.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Because it seems so simple and profoundly true. You know my studio manager, Jake, we work very closely.

Pete: Oh, yeah. We love Jake.

Jen: We are so like-hearted. We want the absolute best for our clients. We want them to have the most amazing experience. But I always say to Jake, I wish I could take a tour of his brain because we are not like-minded at all. The way his mind works is completely opposite from mine. He sees problems in a way that I never see them. He sees solutions in a way I would never see them. And it's one of the reasons why we make a great team, because we are not like-minded.

Pete: Fascinating. Fascinating, because I'm now wondering, you and I have described ourselves as having like similar brains before, despite being from other sides of the world and other sides of the height spectrum. And yet, I'm now wondering if like what we actually meant is we are like-hearted.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Because we don't necessarily agree with or think about things in the same way. I think that's one of the reasons this podcast is still existing, is because we like hearing things from completely different perspectives, from different worlds, which is not necessarily of the same mind but actually of the same spirit and heart, of like, let us discuss ideas from a place of curiosity and from a place of like, "I'm trying to learn and grow and hear what Jen might think about this," but it doesn't mean we're having conversations about things that we constantly agree on and think about in the exact same way.

Jen: Yeah. Isn't it an interesting distinction?

Pete: It is. It feels like one of those things that you can't unsee.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And yet, I'm finding myself like, "Okay, what the hell do I do about this now?"

Jen: Well, I know for myself...my group classes are on pause for the summer, because I'm doing my summer coaching program. But when we get back in September, I'm going to actively challenge us, when I or someone else says, "Like-minded people," I'm going to reframe it. That is my commitment to myself, is to say, "We're like-hearted. And thank goodness we're not like-minded. Because now, I have something to learn from you. You have something to learn from me. We can expand the possibilities for empathy when we're able to see things from more perspectives."

Pete: Oooh. Yes, please. It feels like this rhymes a lot with Carol Dweck's idea of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: If we start to just not use the frame "like-minded", then what that immediately suggests to me is, there is something I can learn from everyone, from everyone's mind. You know? Because I'm not like-minded...like, you know, the more I think about this, the more we talk about this, I'm like, "There's no such thing as like-minded." Because everyone has completely different contexts, completely different perceptions, completely different understandings of the world based on their experience and their unique worldview and the things that they have consumed and that they've experienced that have influenced how they see the world. So, it's almost like there's no such thing as like-minded, in a way. And maybe if we just take that as somewhat true...I'm not saying it definitely is, but if that was true, then I can learn something from anyone.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And do so in a spirit that I hope to be, you know, compassionate and caring, and from a place of trust and respect and growth, which is like-hearted.

Jen: Yeah. It's making me question how we got here in the first place. (And this is not any sort of a well thought-out hypothesis.) But it seems to me, it's easier to talk about our minds, because we fool ourselves into thinking we are logical and rational people. And it's scarier to talk about what lies underneath that, which is how we feel and how we love one another. Like in a corporate setting, to talk about being like-hearted would suggest that there's love in the room. And that, you know, love at work is not something that is usually brought up.

Pete: It's a great way to make a bunch of people feel uncomfortable in a corporate world, for sure.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah. You had that point around like, we like to think we're all so rational.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: But in actual fact, we're all totally irrational.

Jen: Uh-huh.

Pete: All the time. And so, if anything, what we have in common is our irrationality.

Jen: One of my favorite books of all time is called Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely. (I will pop it in the Box O' Goodies.) It's so fascinating, from cover to cover. It's just wildly fascinating. But he also has a great way of injecting some humor into how predictably irrational we are, as people who think we are totally rational.

Pete: Yeah, that's such a good book. I'm trying to work out if there's a connection here between one of my favorite podcasts of all time, which is called The Imperfects, which is an Australian-based podcast where they basically get guests on that are often well-known figures in Australia. And as the title suggests, they share how they're like completely imperfect and flawed.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And in doing so...and, you know, Brene Brown has actually been a really big influence on the podcast, and the hosts, and the way they show up and seek to basically create connection through imperfection. I just can't shake the feeling that that is somewhat related, that when we are able to share imperfections, we so often feel connected to the people that do that. And is that because we're like-hearted, in the sense that we hear them say something that is totally imperfect that they struggle with, and you go, "Oh my god. I, too, am totally imperfect. And I struggle with things too." So, it almost like takes it from...this is not a rational mind thing. This is like, "Oh, you're like a human being with absolute flaws and imperfections." I relate to that more than I relate to people who can articulate the same point that I can articulate.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yes. This seems to ping off of another topic that has come up many times in recent episodes, which is humility. That there is a certain humility in acknowledging that we're not all like-minded.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And that there is this emotional connection piece.

Pete: Hmm. So the book I think about when I hear the word "humility" is Think Again by Adam Grant. Like, I feel like that entire book is basically, "Here's the case for humility. Here's the case to rethink your assumptions or your opinions or your views of anything, really." But in particular, in his context, he's talking about, "Leaders should be thinking again." And I think part of the punch line is: No one knows, for sure, anything. Which I feel like is kind of true, right? Like, we have things that we believe to be true. But can we categorically say they are 100% true? I think, often case, we can't. And so the thing I think about now, in thinking about like-minded, is interesting because the confirmation, to your point around confirmation bias, the confirmation is, "My mind is right. And so if I can find other people who also validate that I'm right, then I feel connected to them." But I feel like this book, Think, Again, is actually trying to get you to do the opposite. Which is, look for all of the places you are wrong. And in uncovering those, talk to people, or figure out through conversation or research or whatever, how you can learn from where you're wrong, and what actually might be true or also be true, as opposed to just believing that the thing that you think is always the truth.

Jen: Yes. And I am a big fan of Adam Grant's podcast, ReThinking, which is essentially, you know, borrowing the concepts from Think Again. Because, in real time, you hear him have these conversations with like-hearted people, people who care about human interaction, who care about personal development, who care about understanding human behavior. And then, Adam will make an assertion. And then, the guest will say, "Actually, no." And then, Adam's like, "Okay. Explain this to me. I want to rethink this." And you hear it happening in real time. And at no point were they disconnected from each other at the core, but the way they're thinking about things is different. In Think Again...I'm going to butcher the exact way it is articulated...but he asks a question which is something like, "What would it take for you to change your mind?"

Pete: Yeah. "What information would you need to change your mind?" I think that's the question.

Jen: And if the answer to that question is, "Absolutely nothing could change my mind," then maybe what you are seeking is like-minded people.

Pete: Right. And also, maybe what you've just uncovered is that's someone who's not like-hearted. If you're someone who is seeking to wrestle with or rumble with ideas and are open to changing your mind, and you meet someone who is like, "Nothing you could say to me would change my mind," you're like, "Hmm, interesting. Not a great deal of humility in that response, so maybe you're not like-hearted with me. And maybe I don't want to be the person that you come to, to have these conversations."

Jen: As I reflect on the difference between "like-minded" and "like-hearted", I see how requiring like-mindedness really cuts you off from the possibility of empathy. Like, it just feels so stark to me.

Pete: Ooh, yeah. Like, I just come back to this idea, like, no one wakes up in the morning thinking, "I'm going to behave totally irrationally."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "I am just going to walk through the world and do things that make absolutely no sense." No one wakes up with that intention. I said that the other day, and someone was like, "Well, maybe some people." And I was like, "Okay, maybe 0.5% of the people in the world."

Jen: Okay.

Pete: Alright. So, let's go with 99.5%. And so, most people, if you get to the root of like the like-hearted part of it, is they want to feel like they belong as part of a community. They want to make sure that their family has the best chance at success, whatever that means for them. Like so much of this, I think when you strip all the like-mindedness back, it's like, we are actually all kind of like-hearted.

Jen: Yeah. This is reminding me of a quote from The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People (which I do quote quite a bit, I'm realizing now), which is, "If you wish to be understood, you must first seek to understand." And if you are only seeking like-minded people, not only will you not understand others, but you might never fully be understood. So, it feels like there's a two-way street here. That like-heartedness cultivates understanding, empathy, compassion...you know, all the things we want for humanity.

Pete: Right. I love the quote from Stephen Covey. I often talk to leaders about this hypothetical figure called Stu (S-T-U). And it stands for "Seek To Understand". And I think it's such just an overarching important rule when thinking about leading a team, navigating a difficult conversation, trying to connect with someone that you don't think you can connect with, just any form of, I think, human connection or human relationship or conversation that relates to that. I often just remind them to, "Think about your friend Stu, and seek to understand." And we can intentionally put ourselves in places where people who have a similar spirit of learning, of growth, but might have different opinions from us, and figure out what we can learn from these people. If they are like-hearted, there is something to be learned here.

Jen: So, Pete.

Pete: Talk to me.

Jen: I think the call to action here is, let us look for kind, compassionate people who believe in growth, who believe in learning, who believe in development, and might think differently than we think about how we're going to actually get to where we want to go.

Pete: Yes. And flipping that, just because someone says something you don't agree with, doesn't mean you are not like-hearted. And so, if you find yourself in a situation where you hear something that you don't necessarily agree with, ask yourself, "Am I like-hearted with this person," versus, "Am I like-minded with this person?"

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.