The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 258 - Chapters

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hi, Peter.

Pete: So, I have a new fear. And I want to talk to you about it.

Jen: Let's add it to the fear menu.

Pete: Add it to the fear menu. I guess it's still part of fear of other people's opinion, but I have this fear that every episode or idea or thought I come up with now relates to being a dad or being a parent.

Jen: That's it?

Pete: And that's all I can talk about. Like, I feels like the only thing I have on my mind now is that, and it's a real fear.

Jen: Oh my gosh, you're worried that you've turned into that guy.

Pete: That guy, I'm that guy. And part of how I'm trying to help myself through this, by reframing it, is using this idea of chapters, and how, as human beings, we go through various chapters or periods of time in our life, and certain chapters reflect certain things and priorities. And so I'm trying to remind myself that I'm in this current chapter, and I want to talk to you about it.

Jen: Let's talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: It's no exaggeration to say, I had like six ideas for podcasts that I was brainstorming before we hopped on and I realized every single one of them was like a metaphor for children and dadding. And I'm like, "We just did Children's Books recently. Like, we did Baby Brain. Like, come on, Pete. Come up with something new."

Jen: Well, to your point, this is the chapter of your life that you're in, and so everything is pinging off of it. And to be fair to you, how many times in the last couple of weeks have I said, "Well, I'm in my summer coaching program," and, "I'm in my summer coaching program," and, "in my summer coaching program...". That's my chapter. You're in dad chapter and I'm in summer coaching program chapter.

Pete: Or, "I was out running and I thought about this idea."

Jen: Right.

Pete: You're in your running chapter, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright, I appreciate the reframe. Yeah, so it reminded me of this podcast episode I once heard from Hugh van Cuylenburg and Ryan Shelton, they have this podcast in Australia called The Imperfects. I'm sure I've referenced it before. It's an amazing podcast here in Australia, where they try and take household names or people who have seemingly got it all together, and then they sort of unpack the fact that they're totally imperfect and they're flawed, and all those things. And so Hugh, in one episode in particular, was sharing a story about how he was out at the park, watching two young males kick a football to one another. And he has just had his third kid, and he was like, "Oh my god, what I would give to just be able to go to a park and kick a football with a friend." And for some reason, he remembered as he was walking away, "When I was that guy kicking the football with my friend at the park, when I was in my early twenties, I actually wanted to be a dad. And I looked at dads and went, 'Oh, I can't wait to be a dad.'" And he was sort of talking about and lamenting this idea that like you're always looking at someone else's life or circumstances and wishing that yours was slightly different. And one of the tools he's been using to help himself, which I really latched on to, he shared this article that (and I will try and find the episode and the article, and put it in the Box O' Goodies) was this idea that like life is a series of chapters. And that as you go through life, you'll enter a chapter where you're the young carefree whippersnapper kicking the football in the park. And then, you might go through a chapter where you become a professional and you have to start working. And then, you might go through a chapter, like I am at the moment, where you're a first time dad and you're like figuring all that out. And it's not permanent, even though it might feel it at the time. And the call to action was, essentially: Can you just embrace and enjoy the chapter you're in, recognizing it is just one of many chapters? So, that's the context.

Jen: Yeah, I resonate with this so much, having already completed my parent of a newborn chapter. And my daughter is about to enter eighth grade, so she's got five more years that we're going to have her at home with us. And I don't know what it is about hitting that five-year mark, but I hadn't been obsessively thinking about Cate going to college until she was entering eighth grade. And then, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we have five more school years and then she's off to college. This is the final chapter of having Cate at home." And then beyond that is the most mysterious chapter of life.

Pete: Oh, yeah.

Jen: What is that? What is that part? I don't even know. Don't even know. But yeah, it is wild how you sort of enter a chapter and look around, and you're like, "Do I even know where I am here? What is this?"

Pete: I find it particularly useful when things feel hard. So as I'm sure many people who have either had kids or even haven't are aware, the first few weeks of being a first-time parent can be hard. And Tracey and I have had a couple of moments where we would say to one another, like, "Is it always going to be this hard? Is it always going to feel this hard?" And we remind ourselves of like, "No, of course not." I mean, there will always be a hard part to work, to life, to being a dad, being a mom, being a parent. And yet, that will probably look different depending on what chapter you're in. So, I find this idea of chapters helpful from the perspective of when things feel hard. In my mind, when things feel hard, it feels like they're permanent. And this idea of a chapter, like I literally visualize a book with, I don't know, fifty chapters, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is just one of those. And once you finish it, a new one starts." And so it's, you know, I guess just another way of saying the age old saying of, "This, too, shall pass." But for some reason, the notion of a chapter, I find helpful.

Jen: I don't know why this is reminding me of when I got married, one of my mom's best friends said to me...at the time, I didn't find it reassuring. But now, like, I really do. She and her husband have been married many, many, many, many years. And she said, "Jenny," because I'm known as Jenny among my mom's friends, "Jenny, it's not that there are going to be good days and bad days. It's that there are going to be good decades and bad decades."

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: And I was like, "What?" But now, I'm like, "That is actually a very reassuring thought." Now, I don't think it has to be as extreme as decades. But to just, you know, thinking about meaningful relationships or career challenges or career pursuits, that there are going to be these chapters. But then they end, and the next thing starts.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So I don't know if that's even connected to what you were talking about, but it made me think of that.

Pete: I think it is. I mean, one of the things you and I were talking about before we started recording this episode was the fact that we're almost up to five years of podcasting.

Jen: Wild.

Pete: You and I, doing this podcast together. And we were kind of having this like wild moment of, "It feels like we just met," but then also, you painted what my life looked like five years ago and we were sort of laughing about how many things have changed.

Jen: Oh my gosh.

Pete: And I was like, "Holy crap. Like, you talk about a different chapter or like seven different chapters all within that five-year period." And so, again, I guess like looking back to a different chapter is another way of reminding yourself that the part you're in now isn't probably going to be the same in five years time or two years time or one years time or twelve weeks time. And so, yeah, I don't know. I just found that a funny conversation, and useful that we had that today actually.

Jen: Yes. And the other thing that's just intriguing me is the idea of how certain things overlap and have completely different timelines. Because it is true, when I first met you, your life was unrecognizable to what it looks like now, like every detail of your life was totally different, except that you and I were friends and we were podcasting. We're still doing that, while all this other stuff is changing. So, there's a really interesting overlap there. I'm sure I have said this on this show before, but when I think about our friendship, sometimes I get a little nervous because I had heard some behavioral scientist's research around the ten-year friendship cycle, and that most friendships are about ten years long. And I'm like, "No. Pete and I are going to be friends forever." But I do have, you know, I've got a handful of friends (it's a small handful) who I have been through multiple decades with. But I'm just saying out loud...and listeners, you heard it here first...there's nothing you can do to get rid of me, Shepherd. I'm going to be in every chapter of your life until the end.

Pete: Oh, that's funny. That's funny though, like to take a different look at chapters, I guess, like through the lens of friendship. I have these friends that I've been friends with since primary school, like we must have been seven or eight. And we're still friends now. And I think part of what makes the friendship so easy when we catch up is the fact that we've seen one another go through so many different life chapters, and there's like a shared connection in that, of like, "Oh, I remember when you were in this chapter, or that chapter, or this chapter." And that builds connection and friendship even more, so, hmm. So the other thing I was thinking about as I was thinking about chapters, I was like, "What is the takeaway here, Pete? Like, what are you actually trying to get at?" I was reminded of your idea that you've shared before in the podcast, but I'd love to hear you share it again, of like seasons and breaking your year into seasons. I feel like there's a rhyme between chapters and seasons, and how we can show up in different ways during different times of our life.

Jen: Yeah, that's really interesting. So when I'm thinking about seasons, one of the things I find comforting about them is I can depend on them, in a certain way. Like just yesterday, my husband said, "Ooh, I feel a fall breeze blowing in." It's like, oh yeah, fall is coming. That is for sure. And after fall, there will be winter. And for myself, I do have these seasons where my summer is a certain kind of way of working and a certain kind of way of existing and thinking. And then once I get to fall, I'm starting to implement all of these ideas I had been generating during my creative season, and then sort of implementation season, and then I'm in a reflective season. And those cycles, those seasons, tend to repeat. So within these various chapters, I can count on the seasons repeating, if that makes any sense. So like one thing is sort of circular, and then the other thing feels like it's moving forward.

Pete: Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I think the thing that you do that I want to see if I can apply to chapters, though, is, with seasons, I feel like you lean into them, you embrace them, and you almost leverage them. Like, to your point, when it's summer, you leverage the fact that it's summer and seek to run more, or run a certain program because people are in a certain stage of their cycle in their career.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And so, rather than lamenting the fact that summer is ending...I mean, we all do a little bit of that, I'm sure. But like, you start to look at, "How do I leverage fall? And how do I leverage winter? And what does that look like for me and my work and my life?" I just think that idea of like embracing and leaning into the chapter or the season (I'm sort of interchanging the two now) is something I want to like think about some more.

Jen: Yeah. And this had not necessarily really occurred to me before, but now that you're saying that, I'm realizing how much of the seasons of my life are dictated by the industry that I'm working in. Because twice a year, we have what we call audition seasons, just things get really, really, really busy. And then, things fall off. So, right now...well, also, we're in the middle of a strike. But right now, it feels like there's a lot of freedom and a lot of space and a lot of time to think big picture and strategize. But once we get past Labor Day, which is coming up for us on September 4th, it gets busy, and then it stays really busy until the holidays. And then, it all falls off again. And then, it gets busy again for audition season in the spring. So, I sort of have designed my own life to accommodate the seasons of my industry.

Pete: Yeah. I feel like we kind of do that in various ways without realizing it.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: Like, the school year is sort of this season that a lot of people follow that have children, for example. Or the financial year is a, you know, a season that a lot of people follow if they're working in business. And the thing I was just...I don't even know if this is of relevance, but the thing I just like wrote down is, I wrote down the word "arbitrary". Because the school season in America is different, from a date perspective, than the school season in Australia.

Jen: Is it?

Pete: Well, yeah, like is it true...am I right in saying like the school year starts for you in around September? Didn't you just say that?

Jen: Yes. September.

Pete: Yeah, right. So, in Australia, it's calendar year.

Jen: What?

Pete: Because summer is December to January. So like, school starts the end of January, and you run for a calendar year, and finish just before Christmas.

Jen: Well, that's when your summer is.

Pete: Right. So, I guess it's centered around summer. In both instances, you get a bigger break over summer. But like, the arbitrariness of it is just hilarious. Because it's, you know, September for you but January for us. But like, so many things can change the story we tell ourselves about that, depending on where we are in the world, changes what's happening within any given month or any given year. But it's totally arbitrary, depending on where you are in the world.

Jen: That is so fascinating to me. You know, Gretchen Rubin, who hosts the Happier podcast...she's American...she calls September: "The other January".

Pete: Yes. See, I just find that idea of...I remember hearing someone (probably it was you) talking about like, "Yep. We're getting ready for the school year," I was like, "What are you talking about? It's like September. Like, we're almost in the middle of the year. This is so weird."

Jen: That's so funny. Wow. So getting back to chapters for a second, I just had this thought, which is, my husband when Cate was young...well, she's still young. She's thirteen and a half. But when she was much younger, when we would close a chapter of her life, he would create a picture book, like a photo book. So he would take all of the photos from that chapter and send them off to get bound into a book. And I'm looking at our bookshelf right now. We clearly need to do a more recent one, but there's a whole bookshelf that's these different chapters of Cate's life in photos. So, we're very accepting of chapters in the lives of our children. And I'm curious, like if I had to put my own life in chapters recently, like what would I even call them?

Pete: Ooh.

Jen: It's just kind of fascinating.

Pete: Yeah, that's interesting. So, I went and had a walk with Ollie yesterday at about 3:30pm. I was working from home, I felt like I'd hit a wall. Honestly, I was like beating myself up for not doing a full...you know, I still have this like eight hour, nine hour day in my brain from so many years of working corporate and working with corporates. Like, I still grapple with that whole eight to five mindset a lot. And Tracey recognized it because we were both at home, I was working from home, and she goes, "Why don't you just take Ollie for a walk?" And so I went for a walk at like 3:30pm, and I was walking around the neighborhood that we're in, and I was like grappling with this like, "Ugh, you know, you're procrastinating. You're walking Ollie." And then, I had this thought of like, "No, this is the success. Like, the fact that I have the capability and the capacity and the means and the flexibility to put my seven-week-old son in the pram and go for a walk at 3:30pm, like what else would you possibly rather be doing?" So it's this idea I'm going back to, which I think about a lot in your seasons context, is, how do you lean in to and leverage the season you're in? How do you acknowledge it and not fight it? How do you go, "Well, the fact that you do have a wife who is on maternity leave, and you do have the ability to work from home and be a little bit flexible, can you leverage that?" Because guess what, Pete? At some point, Ollie's not going to want to go for a walk with you at 3:30pm on a Tuesday afternoon.

Jen: Mmm-hmm. Yes, true story. Okay, I don't know why this conversation is just bringing up advice people have given me over the years, but that just made me think of one of my dearest friends. She had kids before I did. And when Cate was born, she was like, "It's so amazing, Jen. When they're kids, they change so fast. You put one kid to bed, and the next morning, that same kid wakes up as a different version of themselves. And they're never going back to who they were before. Like, they're always changing, and they're not going back." And as adults, when we change, we wonder, "Oooh, how can I get back to where I was? Like, this change is uncomfortable." But when you're a kid, you change and you accept it, and you allow them to keep changing.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: I just thought that's so interesting. This is why it's great that you are a new dad and we're going to keep talking about Oliver, because kids have so much to teach us about how to be better versions of ourselves.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. Which just pings off a blog, actually, I read recently from Seth Godin. He wrote about the distinction between being childlike and childish.

Jen: Oh, yes.

Pete: I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies. But his call to action was: We could learn a lot from this idea of being childlike, and we could do away with being childish. And you're right, I think there's just so much wisdom from being a parent. So, listeners, sorry...or you're welcome, I'm not sure. There's plenty more coming.

Jen: Well, Pete, I have to say that I am pleased to see you in this chapter of life, having different ways of thinking, new experiences, slowing down, appreciating the moment. This chapter is quite beautiful to witness. So, I won't get used to it because I know the next chapter is coming.

Pete: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I'm not sure the people in my workshop yesterday, who I subjected to about three different parenting metaphors, would agree, but I hear what you're saying and I'm going to keep them coming anyway.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.