The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 261 - Goal Stacking

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: So we just worked out, off-air, it's officially five years of you and I recording these episodes. Happy five year.

Jen: Happy anniversary.

Pete: Wild. And two things happened at once in a very short period of time. One, I realized it was our five year, and then two, we were having a conversation about goal setting, goal stacking, and what you're up to with your community. And I did a quick search and I realized, somehow we have never recorded an episode with the word "goal" in it, which just feels ridiculous.

Jen: How is that possible?

Pete: I know. So, my intention is to record an episode today that has the word "goal" in it. In particular, I'm curious about your concept of goal stacking, and how you think about that. I guess, especially as we think about the last quarter of 2023, it feels like a good time to think about goal setting and goal stacking. So, can you enlighten us?

Jen: Oh, you know that I can, Peter Shepherd. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: What was that dialect?

Pete: I'm not sure. I didn't want to say anything. I just wanted to let it go. It was great.

Jen: Wow.

Pete: "Mr. Shepherd."

Jen: "Mr. Shepherd." Okay, so I was telling you before we hit record that I've been doing these wrap-up sessions with the folks who were a part of my coaching program for the last four months. (I'm going to miss it so much, it has been such a joy.) So at the beginning of this program, I talked them through several different goal setting frameworks. And honestly, each one of those could be its own episode, so I won't get into the weeds on that right now. But I have them set three goals. And I call this "goal stacking", not dissimilar to an episode we did once upon a time called Risk Stacking.

Pete: Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm. I remember.

Jen: And the idea behind goal stacking is very much in alignment with risk stacking, which is that if you set one goal for a certain period of time...and with this group of people it was four months. If you set one goal for four months, you can become obsessed and fixated on that goal to the point of not being able to see anything else, and so rigid about accomplishing it that it doesn't leave a lot of room for adjusting or even deleting the goal. So, I have them set three goals that we strategize how to pursue those aims concurrently. And what ends up happening, because they are working on three things at once, those things start to feed each other and inform each other. And as their personal and professional circumstances change, their goals sometimes change. Sometimes, I'll get on a call with someone and they'll say, "Goal #3: No longer relevant. Delete. We need to replace it." And then, it feels fine. It doesn't feel like a failure. It doesn't feel like, "I don't know where I am." It's like, "Oh, I'm just making this adjustment and I'm still moving forward," as opposed to, "No, I have to start everything over again."

Pete: So, this feels very genius for so many reasons. One clarifying question I had was, are they intended to be linked in any way? Or can they be completely disparate? And then, I'm sure as you get through the quarter or the month, you might realize they're more linked than you realize. But are they allowed to be completely separate?

Jen: They are allowed to be completely separate. That being said, the context of the program is it's a group of artists and the why of the program is to create the career that you want to build, a sustainable, fulfilling, artistically full of integrity kind of career. So, the goals tend to fall under that purpose-driven umbrella.

Pete: Makes sense. So, there's not necessarily someone like, "I'm going to run the New York Marathon. That's my goal." And you're like, "That's probably not for the context of this program."

Jen: Although, today, one of my clients said, "I'm doing this fitness program that I've always done without a certain level of discipline. And my goal for Q4 is to do it with the sense of discipline, so that I can start ingraining in myself a higher level of discipline in my pursuits that are hard." So in that case, the fitness goal did become part of the program.

Pete: Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Touché. So, one of the things I just really like about this idea of goal stacking that you articulated is it feels like it helps you let go of the goal achieving in a way.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I'm sure I've heard you say this before, that you care a lot about goal setting and intention setting and like, "Here is where I'm hoping to go. Here are the three goals that I want to strive towards or work towards, which gives me a, you know, north star or a compass to align my habits and my values and projects that I'm doing." And I'm sure I've heard you say, but you don't really care as much about achieving the goal.

Jen: That's exactly right.

Pete: I so agree with that. So, can you just say more about that for the listeners? Like, why do we not care as much about goal achieving, in your context?

Jen: Because when you're setting a goal, you're only able to work with the knowledge you have at the moment you set the goal. And then, the second you start in pursuit of that thing, you learn more about yourself, about the world you're operating in, and things change. But you have moved in a direction that matters to you. And ultimately, that's the point.

Pete: Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, this is why I love it. It's like, we need to spend time intentionally setting direction or goals. And we also need to like, once we've said it, almost unattach from achieving it, which I think feels counterintuitive or feels difficult for a lot of people. But this is why I think your idea is so genius, is, like you mentioned, it feels easier to let go of one because I've got two others, or it feels easier to redefine one because like, "Oh, I've got this other one over here." So it's helping me hold these goals a little loosely, a little less tightly, which I think is only a good thing.

Jen: That's right. And one of the things I do with my clients, I use this system that I created, which we should absolutely do an episode on. I call it the STARlMAP.

Pete: STARlMAP, I'm writing this down for future episodes.

Jen: Yep, we're definitely going to do a STARlMAP episode. Listeners, hold me to this. But the punchline of the STARlMAP is that after you have named the thing that you are doing, whatever the goal is, I ask them to put it in the present tense in a sentence. So in my coaching program, for example, let's say I have a client whose goal is to create a world-class package to send out to the agents that they are interested in connecting with. They would say, "I am creating a world-class package that I'm sending to the agents I'm interested in working with," but there's no period there, then it's, "so that...," and then they name the purpose of the goal. So it could be, "...so that I raise the bar on the level of work I and my team are able to do," or, "...so that I can move faster in my career," or, "...so that I can reach more people," or whatever it is. And let's say that tomorrow, an amazing agent calls them and says, "I'd like to work with you." They don't have to then say, "Well, actually, my goal is to send you my package, as opposed to you calling me." You go to the, "so that...," and if it fits so that we up level the career, then yes, let's have that conversation.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So I think the purpose-driven part of the goal setting is vital, in order to be able to release the actual goal.

Pete: So good. Yeah, it's helping us set us on a direction, a purpose. And doing so requires us to be open to possibilities that we can't see yet. So it's like, "This is the goal at the moment, based on the context I have. And I have permission to change it, as long as it's still in pursuit of the same purpose. But it might be a slightly different way of getting there."

Jen: And I'll tell you, Pete, for many years I used (or I really tried to use) the SMART goal system that I'm sure anyone who has ever worked anywhere is familiar with.

Pete: Specific. Measurable. Achievable.

Jen: Right, right, right.

Pete: Is that the one? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jen: But the thing that always rubbed me the wrong way was that there was no purpose in it.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And that is why I ended up creating the STARlMAP, which we will talk about. I'm promising that. We will talk about it on a future episode.

Pete: So many questions about the STARlMAP, but let's save it. Let's save it.

Jen: It's a teaser. You've got to come back every week.

Pete: Tune in next week for the STARlMAP episode...or maybe the week after, you don't know. Okay, so this idea, is this something you encourage your community to revisit each quarter? Like, the context you and I were talking about this was, you said to me...we're recording this on the 21st of September (your time), the 22nd of September (my time), and you said, "There's one hundred days of the year left, or ninety-nine if you're in Australia." And I was kind of like, "Oh, I feel like that means I should think about, 'What am I hoping to achieve in the next one hundred days, ninety-nine days?'" Is that sort of where this is being brought back to life for your people?

Jen: Well, I like working in quarters because they're sort of bite-size chunks of time.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And what I end up doing, at least with this coaching program, is, I start to encourage them to think about the end of the quarter as actually being the beginning of the next chapter, or like the runway or the launchpad to what's coming up as opposed to an ending.

Pete: Right.

Jen: But I don't know if you knew this, Pete, I run a quarterly review at the end of each quarter. I do like an online Zoom workshop at the end of each quarter.

Pete: For you, and everyone who wants to take part?

Jen: Anyone who wants to take part. It's coming up on the last Friday of this quarter. And if people want to check it out, they can come on over to www.jws.community and click on the Online tab. And you can join us. It's not just for artists.

Pete: I feel like I didn't know this about you. And I'm actually keen to join. I keep looking to the left, I don't know if you noticed. But I have a whiteboard to the left of me, and it says at the top of the whiteboard, "The Next 90." And I split my whiteboard into "personal" and "projects", is what I call it. And I didn't even do this deliberately, but I have three dot points under "projects" and three dot points under "personal". And the idea is these are the three, I guess, goals or focus areas for me over the next ninety days. And it's coming up to the end of the quarter, and I keep looking at it like, "I've got to rub those out and review. And then, what am I going to put up there?" So this is all very, very timely. The other thing I realized is, you and I did an episode at the start of the year (like we do every year) around, "What are the words and the intentions that we have for the new year?" And I said to everyone, "I'm doing mine in six-month increments because there's a thing coming up that, it's going to change everything."

Jen: A thing in the form of a child.

Pete: I think I said at the time, though, "There's an event happening." And I don't think I actually said it, which is quite funny. And the thing happened, I've since had a son. (His name is Oliver.) And I haven't revisited, like I promised, because I've been in the throes of trying to figure this whole parenting thing out for the first twelve weeks of his life. So all of that to say, I feel like the last ninety, the last one hundred, whatever it is, feels like something I'm about to buy into. And listeners, if you want to join me, please. Let's think about, "How do we want to show up? And what do we want to get done in the next ninety days?"

Jen: I love that. I'm going to hold you to that, Shepherd. Maybe you want to come to the quarterly review and figure it out.

Pete: I do, I do. I have no idea if this is related and I wondered if this was an entirely separate episode, but I was just thinking about, one way of thinking about the next ninety days is, "What do I want to get done? Or what am I hoping to achieve?" And there's this question that has come into my life in the last, I don't know, month. I'm sure I read it in a parenting book somewhere. And the question I just am so obsessed with is, "Am I worth copying?" And I've been thinking about this question almost every single day, because I feel like it's a very provocative question to get you thinking about how you're showing up. And I feel like the way you show up is then going to influence whether you achieve the goals that you've set or the goal stacking that you've completed. So I don't know, I just feel like throwing that question in the mix because it feels relevant, maybe just to me.

Jen: Well, I bet there is a, "so that...," related to one of your goals in your goal stack that could be articulated as, "...so that I'm making something worth copying," or, "...I'm behaving in a way that is worth copying," or, "...so that I'm becoming an example for others," or whatever that might be. That's where that purpose thing becomes so helpful.

Pete: So helpful. It's like, I've been thinking about this as it relates to my clients, especially, you know, senior leaders in organizations, is, "Am I behaving in a way that's worth copying," or, "Am I worth copying, so that those in my team are also able to model the behaviors that I'm seeking to cultivate?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: You know, so if I'm expecting my team members to be better at decision making or better at empathizing with their team, well, can they copy that from me? Am I modeling that to them? So, that's the context I've been thinking about it in. But I think you're right, there's a, "so that...," there, which I'm sure I could apply to myself, whether it's related to parenting or serving clients or running workshops.

Jen: And so you were asking earlier, do the three goals have to be linked? And the answer is no. And it doesn't have to be three goals. Like, it could be seven. It can be whatever you want. But what's interesting is if this idea of something worth copying is important to you, that might be the actual link, is the purpose of all the goals and not the goals themself.

Pete: Yes. Yes. Yes. I like that. Okay, so there's a metaphor that keeps coming to mind that some people listening this podcast will be like, "Oh god, here he goes again with that donkey metaphor." But the donkey metaphor, it just keeps coming to my mind, because I'm so obsessed with this. Derek Sivers once wrote about it, I'll put it in the Box O' Goodies. I've mentioned it probably three hundred times in this podcast. And it's just this idea that you imagine a donkey in a field. And there's a trough of hay on one side and a trough of water on the other. And the donkey can't decide which one to have first, because they're hungry and they're thirsty, and they're like, "Do I have the hay? Do I have the water? Do I have the hay? Do I have the water?" (This is a fable, this is not true.) The donkey collapses and dies of dehydration and starvation. And it's like, "Donkey, you could have had both. You just needed to pick one first."

Jen: Right.

Pete: "Just pick one first." And the kind of moral of the story that Derek writes about is, as humans we're often so bad at thinking medium- to long-term. We think so often in short-term increments, that we can't actually extend our field of vision to go, "Oh, I could actually have both of these things. And I just need to pick one first." And I just feel like I can hear myself and others, hearing this idea of like three goals and being like, "You can't work on three things at once." And I feel like you're not saying that. You're saying it gives you permission to work on one thing for a period of time, and then if you get stuck or if you get to a point where you now need to wait for someone else to do something, you finish the hay, you can go, "Okay, now I can have some water and I can work on this goal as well." So it's like nudging them forward in parallel, not all trying to push them at the same time.

Jen: I think that is absolutely accurate, that it gives you a chance to change your focus, relax your brain in a certain area, turn it on in a different area.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: There may be goals that you can push forward all at the same time. And there may be goals that really need to be tended to one at a time. And both are completely legitimate.

Pete: Totally. Yeah, I feel like the other thing that comes to mind is, I feel like there's a hiding spot on both ends of the spectrum. There's a hiding spot if I've only set one goal, because maybe I'm telling myself, "I've done as much as I can do on that. And now, I don't do anything," and so I'm hiding, and I'm not actually creating or nudging anything. And there's a hiding spot in, "I've got twelve goals," in that I'm never going to get anything done, because I'm like so spiraling about all of the twelve things that I'm trying to do. So I don't know, I feel like there's a sweet spot for all of us, somewhere in the middle.

Jen: Well, I do run into the, "I have too many goals. I can't commit to three," always, at the beginning of the coaching program. And so the thing I have people do is, goals that could be linked, put them together in a project. So if let's say someone's like, "But I have to make a website, that's a goal." For me, I'm working with actors, "I need to redo my headshots, that's a goal. And I need to create all of these new digital footage videos, and that's a goal. And I need to redo my social media, that's a goal." And I go, "Well, can't this just be a goal that's called The Marketing Project?"

Pete: Hmm. Nice.

Jen: And they're like, "Oh. Right." So we just, in a more tidy way, put it under one umbrella.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And while we're speaking of project-ifying goals, something that I find helpful is when you're looking at a project and you're looking at three months, it's like, "Well, there's no way this project is crossing the finish line in three months," and so then we break the project down into phases, and we just commit to Phase One being whatever is realistically accomplishable in the quarter.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And then next quarter, you can deal with Phase Two.

Pete: Chunk it down.

Jen: Chunk it down.

Pete: Yeah, yeah. I love all of this. This feels like a...it feels like this has been a little bit of a coaching session for me. I feel like I needed to hear you say this. I feel like sometimes (maybe it's the post-baby haze) I've been operating with less intention than perhaps I have in the past. And the thing I love about this is it just gives you the ability to be so intentional with what you spent time on and when each day. So thank you, Jen Waldman. Our first episode with "goal" in the title.

Jen: I know, that's crazy to me. But now, I feel like we have opened a can of worms. And listeners, you can expect many, many more in the future.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.