The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 265 - Rules

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: Would you consider yourself a rule follower?

Jen: No.

Pete: Do you want to think about it for a second, or...? Ah, that's funny. I think I am a rule follower. In fact, even the fact that I think I am is probably funny to people that know me. I am a rule follower.

Jen: You definitely are.

Pete: And so, unsurprisingly, when I heard Shane Parrish recently in an interview talking about how we can leverage rules, my ears pricked up, my brain got excited, and I wrote down a bunch of notes. And I want to talk to you about what he shared and how we might think about rules to our benefit, not to our detriment, and maybe even someone who doesn't follow rules could help us take away an insight or two.

Jen: I recently heard an interview with Shane Parrish too, about this very thing, so I cannot wait to talk to you about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Okay, Pete.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Before we get into this, let me just say that I follow rules I set for myself.

Pete: Ah-hah. Alright, so this is applies to you then.

Jen: I'm a rule follower of self-made rules.

Pete: Right. Okay. Then you, I think, will classify for what I'm wanting to talk about and how we can benefit from said rules. So, context, Shane Parrish has an incredible podcast called The Knowledge Project.

Jen: So good.

Pete: And he was recently on a Tim Ferriss episode that I listened to. And I've also heard him talk on his own podcast about his new upcoming book, which we'll link to in the Box O' Goodies. And I'll put the episode that I'm referring to in the Box O' Goodies. But one of the things that just caught my ear, when him and Tim Ferriss were talking, was how humans tend to be very good at following rules. And not just following rules, but often times we're very good at not questioning rules. And he talked about the fact that once he realized that, he started to think about, "Well, how do I leverage that fact and make rules for myself, to avoid decision fatigue, to avoid negotiation fatigue with myself, but also with my friends and family?" And he went into a bunch of different examples of how we can leverage rules, and I am now obsessed with this idea.

Jen: I actually love it as a rule non-follower, I truly do love this idea about setting rules for oneself in an effort to avoid decision fatigue. But also, to lean into the Brene Brown idea of, "Clear is kind," because when you say to someone, "Oh, I have this rule for myself that I don't do this, or I always do this...", how could someone question that? It's just clear.

Pete: And people don't.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And so the examples he gives, just to throw a few out there...and I have a few I've been thinking about for myself, and I'm sure you have some that you also follow. So he gives examples of like, "You know, I don't really like working out. And I used to have a rule or a goal for myself to work out three times a week." And he said, "What ended up happening is, every day became a negotiation for, 'Is this one of those three days?' And, 'Oh, no, not today. Maybe I'll do it tomorrow.' And then, tomorrow comes and, 'I'll just make up for it on Saturday.'" And so, the fact that he had a goal of three days didn't quite work. And so instead, he said, "Well, if I make a rule that I work out every day, then the negotiation each day is non-existent. Instead, the challenge becomes, 'Where am I going to squeeze in my workout,' or, 'How am I going to make space for this workout,'" because the decision of whether I'm going to do it or not, he's already made. And he also shared some great examples of a friend who was, I think, trying to lose some weight. And he created a rule for himself, anytime he went to a work dinner (which often involves alcohol and dessert and, you know, extravagant eating), he made a rule for himself, which was, "I don't drink alcohol and I don't have dessert." And he made that rule for himself. But also, when people offered him a drink, he said, "Oh, no. I have a rule. I don't drink on work events or work dinners." And everyone was like, "Oh. Okay. No need to challenge that rule, because he's got a rule." And, I don't know, it feels like obnoxiously simple. But for some reason, it really hit me in a way that I'm really excited about.

Jen: Yeah. Well, and the word 'rule', as opposed to like 'suggestion for myself'...like, 'rule' has such a severe connotation to it, that if someone were to say, "No, I have a rule that I don't drink at work functions," it's so definitive that it's not worth questioning. So I just, I love the whole concept.

Pete: Yes, which, it's very Shane Parrish. It's like he's found this mental model that helps him make his life better. And he's now like, "Now I'm going to leverage the fact that I realized this, that just framing it as a rule as opposed to a goal or a habit has changed my relationship with it. And so, why don't I create more of these rules?" And so that's what I've been thinking about, is like, what sort of rules can we create? What sort of rules do we already have in our life that can enable us to be the kind of person that we want to be? So what sort of rules do you have for yourself, Mrs. I Don't Follow Rules?

Jen: Well, what's kind of funny, Pete, is I think one of the reasons we are five years into this podcast is we have a rule that we don't have seasons for this podcast. We don't take breaks. And we release an episode every single week, regardless of what is going on in our lives. Now sometimes, like when Ollie was born, we knew Ollie was going to be born so we pre-batched a bunch of episodes so that we could stick with the rule of releasing one every week. But even when life throws us curveballs, you and I have somehow been able to make good on it, because that is a rule. We have never missed a week (period, end of story) in five years.

Pete: So true. So true. And I've heard Seth talk about this with his blog...Seth Godin, who writes a blog every single day. And he talks about like, "I don't sit down to write just because I've got something to say. I actually have something to say because I've made the decision that I'm going to sit down to write every day." And so, it's a rule that he's created that he no longer has to question or make the decision for every day. It's just a thing that he has to do, because it's a rule that he made for himself. So, I think the podcast and the blog example are good ones. What about like, you know, personally, or in your work? Do you have rules that you try and set for you and your clients, or for you and your family?

Jen: Yes. Yes, I do.

Pete: Hit me.

Jen: So one of the rules that I live by is, if I see a piece of work (meaning art, theater, music, dance, whatever) that I like, I reach out to the person who made it and I tell them that I liked it.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: It doesn't matter if I've never met them. It doesn't matter how fancy or famous they are. I'm going to find some way, whether it is email, text, LinkedIn, Instagram...I don't do Twitter...Facebook, through a friend of a friend and asking them to forward the thing, I always make it a rule to tell someone I think they've done great work. And the reason that really works for me is I am not allowed to be afraid of doing it, because it's just a rule that I have. So there's no like, I don't go into the pit of like, "How am I going to say this," or, "What am I going to say," or, "What if they don't want to hear from me," or any of that when it comes to that kind of a reach out, because I'm like, "Oh, this is my rule. If someone's made good work, I want them to know I thought it was great. That's the rule."

Pete: Love it. Love it, love it, love it.

Jen: What about you?

Pete: I feel like I have so many, without realizing that I created them for myself. And so funnily enough, I was saying to Tracey last night, "Oh, there's this great podcast, you should listen to it, about rules. And Shane Parrish...". And she kind of laughed and rolled her eyes, and she's like, "You and your rules." And I was like, "What do you mean? And she's like, "You've got so many." And she goes, "You know, like no phone in the bedroom. You know, you basically wear a black T-shirt every day. You like...", and on and on she went. She had example, after example, after example. But I think that the ones that I heard him communicate that really resonate with me were like, "Move your body every day," or, "Workout every day." That's definitely one I try and follow. And then the more he talked, the more I realized I guess I looked at it for the opposite, which is, "Where am I tiring myself out with decisions, where I could just create a rule?" And the one that was staring me right in the face was the work from home versus go to an office. Which, I have an office, it's about twenty minutes away. And I've told myself that I like to be fluid. And I'll go to the office depending on my schedule on the days that suit, so I can also be at home and support Tracey and Ollie and, you know, and do that balance. But literally every morning, I have this almost negotiation and decision that I get overwhelmed about, which is like, "Is today a day where I'm going to go to the office? Or am I going to stay home today? And if I stay home, have I got lunch? And if I have lunch, what am I going to eat? And if I don't...?" And it's like this ridiculous routine every day. And I realized I could just say, "Tuesdays and Wednesdays are days I work from home," or whatever the days end up being.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And that becomes a rule. And so, I've been looking at it less about, "What are the rules I have," and more about, "Where are the decisions that are tiring me out, and how do I create a rule around those?"

Jen: Oh, yeah. I think that's so great. It's making me want to investigate conceptually and semantically the difference between setting a rule and building a habit. Because I think these things are closely related, but like the words that we're using make a difference. So as an example, every morning when I get up, I fill my coffee cup with water. And in order to have coffee, I have to have finished the water. I have done this every single day without missing a day for, I don't know, ten years maybe.

Pete: That's hilarious. Yeah.

Jen: So, I start every morning by drinking water. That is, at this point, a habit. It's just like, I don't even have to think about it. But it started as a rule.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Because I knew I was not drinking enough water. And now, it's automated. But it had to start as a rule for me, in order for it to turn into a habit. I mean, I'm sort of thinking out loud here. I've never really thought about these words in relationship to each other. But I see how setting a rule might actually be a great first step for building a habit.

Pete: Yeah, I tend to agree. I think in the episode I was referring to, they talked about James Clear and how brilliant he is with his book, Atomic Habits, and all the things that he's out there spruiking. I tend to agree (having not thought about it any more than in this conversation) that a rule might enable us to better stick to habits or create habits. And this is, again, this is why I said it's very Shane Parrish. So much of this is the way you frame things, which, he's written books about mental models. And basically, mental models are, "Can you frame things in a certain way for your brain, so that it's easier to do them or get your head around them?" So if it means framing it as a rule in order for it to become a habit, then I'm like, "All the power to you for doing that."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: But I tend to agree. I have this...what's the word...inertia, maybe, when it comes to like, "Now, you're starting to build a new habit from scratch." I'm like, "Oh my god." Whereas, like if someone says to me, "Here's a rule." I'm like, "Alright, I'll follow that. I like rules," as long as I understand the intention of it and why I'm setting that rule. Like, for me, if there's a rule to work out every day, I know that that is going to help me physically and mentally be a better person. So I have no problem following the rule, because I understand the benefit of it.

Jen: Okay, just to touch on this thread a little more, in Atomic Habits, by James Clear uses the example of someone trying to get into a gym-going routine. And so the way he helps this person build the atomic habit is to actually get them to physically show up at the gym but not go in. Like, I think actually it starts with, you know, "Lay out your shoes one night. Okay, so then the next day, lay out the shoes, and then put them on. And then the next day, lay out the shoes, put them on, go to the car. The next day, after the car, get to the gym. Then, get out of the car, go in to the gym," etc., etc. And so it's like building, but the rule is still in place underneath all of the iterations of the habit that's being built.

Pete: Yeah. I think the other link I see here is the idea of keeping the habit but reducing the scope.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: If I have a rule to work out every day, the negotiation is not, "Am I going to work out," it becomes, "Where am I going to squeeze this into my day?" And I look at my calendar and go, "Well, I've got like a ten-minute gap. And that is overwhelming, because I only have ten minutes." So one side of that coin, which again James Clear talks about, is, "Well, I don't have an hour, so I won't go to the gym." But the other side, if we're keeping the habit and reducing the scope, or if we're following the rule as Shane Parrish would say, then you just do a ten-minute workout. You just do push-ups for ten minutes, or run for eight minutes, or whatever it is. It's more important to maintain the habit or follow the rule than it is to do the allotted time that you really want to do.

Jen: Yeah. I'm thinking now (my brain just took a pivot) back to, "Clear is kind." And I just wanted to circle that idea for a second, because I could see this being such a tool of empowerment and permission for people who have a hard time saying no. And actually looking for the areas in your life, like you were talking about, look for the areas that you have a hard time self-motivating or making a decision. Look for the areas in your life where you have a hard time saying no, but then when you sort of get muscled into a yes, you're unhappy about it, and create a rule around that. So, I'll use myself as an example here. I work with a lot of actors. A lot of them are looking for agents. And I have a rule with myself that I can express to someone if they say, "Hey, would you introduce me to such and such an agent," I can say, "Well, I have a rule that I can only ask upfront once a year for them to meet someone who I want to introduce them to. But I have unlimited opportunities to praise people if you're able to get someone else to get you the meeting. So no, I can't do the initial reach out because I've already spent my ask for the year. But find another way, and then I'm happy to say that I know you and I like you and I can speak to your work."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: "But I can't do the front-end ask. I have to do the back-end ask."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And people absolutely understand that that's a rule that also has conditions around it.

Pete: Yes. I like this idea of like, "How do you leverage them as a freelancer/entrepreneur/business owner?" Because I think like having rules around, "Here are my payment terms. I need to be paid upfront, or within thirty days of completing the thing that I'm doing. And that is the rule that I have for my business," like you said, people don't argue with that. If you say, "Well, my personal preference is you pay me up front, but like, you know, it's okay if you don't," then people don't know when to pay you. Like, give me a rule.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And that's often when you don't get paid. So having something like payment terms or, you know, a flat rate if I'm doing a one-on-one coaching, "The rule is it has to be this rate. I don't have room to flex or negotiate, because then that becomes a whole process for both of us to have to go through. So if that works for you, great. If not, that's okay too." Or I've implemented this one recently, actually...I've realized I just implemented a rule without realizing it, which is now that I have a son, I have less desire to be flying around the country on a whim or flying around the world on a whim, which is what I spent a lot of time doing for a lot of my work now that we're sort of in the post-COVID era. And one of the things I've done recently is, I've said, "I am only going to travel on certain days. And I'm only going to travel for one night at a time, not like a whole week. And I want to be booked on flexi flights," which just means, in Australia, you can book flexible flights where you don't have to pay to change them. If you finish early, you can get home early and you don't have to pay a fee, and vice versa. Now, it costs the client more to pay for you to have a flexible flight. But I've decided that is now a rule for me, based on the conditions I want and the life I have. So, I don't know, these are just examples. I feel like maybe it's helpful to share examples like this.

Jen: So helpful. I was just reminded when you were talking about traveling around to speak, that Seth Godin on his website has a list of rules, of his speaking roles. And they're so great. I will absolutely put them in the Box O' Goodies. So, here's Rule #7. And it's said with a sense of humor, but it's very clear. "Alas, Seth can't present his laptop to you the night before for setup or safekeeping. Nor can he surrender it to you the day of the event. It stays in his possession. All his work is there. However, Seth is more than willing to work with your team on a tech check, preferably thirty minutes before he goes on stage."

Pete: I love it.

Jen: So, that is so clear. No, he's not going to give you his computer. He also does not want to show up seven hours before the event, thirty minutes before is preferable.

Pete: Love it.

Jen: That part is flexi. But the him giving you his computer, not flexible. That's a rule.

Pete: So, I feel like the way I've been trying to think about this is like, "What are the conditions you want to cultivate for yourself? What are the behaviors you want to be prioritizing, whether it's working out or traveling on certain days? And then, how can you leverage rules to create those conditions for yourself?"

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And so, my message to everyone listening who is interested is: What are the behaviors are seeking to cultivate? And how might you create rules around those to enable you to cultivate them?

Jen: And can I add: What kinds of relationships with other people are you seeking to cultivate? And how could you leverage rules to help you find the courage to cultivate those relationships?

Pete: Yes, please. Now, it's approaching twenty minutes, Jen. And we have a rule that we never (unless we're interviewing Seth Godin) exceed roughly twenty to twenty-five minutes. So, we better wrap up.

Jen: Well, even though I'm not a rule follower when other people set rules for me, this rule makes a lot of sense to me. So, I will set it for myself and say that that is The Long and The Short Of It.