The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 273 - Pedestals

Transcript:

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: We recently recorded an episode about Broadway Jesus, as prompted by you.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And it got me thinking about a few moments recently where I've had a client who has had some version of the realization that they are, in fact, the Broadway Jesus in someone else's eyes. And I'm wondering, A., if you've had this experience. I feel like you are a Broadway Jesus for some people. And B., what do we do when we realize that? I think there's an interesting learning to be had from when you realize you might be a Broadway Jesus.

Jen: Oh my gosh. Yes, I have experienced this. And it's an interesting feeling. Let's talk about it. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: So the most recent example, I'll just share why this came up or how this came up, I was coaching a really senior General Manager of a very very large, publicly-listed company here in Australia. And she's really quite brilliant, as you would expect to be in that role. And she was sharing this struggle she's having, a two-part struggle she was having. The first was she had to present to the board. And she was feeling like a bit of a fraud and a bit of an impostor, and, "Who am I to present to the board? And we've got shareholders, and like this is a big deal. I need to make sure that I say the right things and ask the right questions." And so, she sort of...we unpacked that. And she talked about how the people on the board, or the story she can tell herself about them is they're like way too intelligent. And how could she ever add value? And she kind of puts them almost on a pedestal. And we sort of talked through that. And then, the very next challenge she wanted to talk about was someone in her team who wasn't necessarily acting with the agency that she wanted. They kept coming to her like, "Hey, do you mind if I do this? Or what do you think about this?" And she was kind of like, "I just want her to realize she has permission to do all of the things. And she keeps coming to me seeking that permission." And where we got to, the long version of story is, the person reporting in is putting her (the General Manager) on a pedestal. And so, she sort of had this like mind-expanding aha moment where she's like, "Oh, wait. I'm putting the person on the board on a pedestal and telling myself a story because they're kind of like a Broadway Jesus. But then, this person who reports to me is putting me on a pedestal. Now, I'm kind of like a Broadway Jesus." And you could see her like mind kind of melting of, "What happens when you are, in someone else's eyes, the Broadway Jesus? Because everyone has had some experience of looking at someone else as the Broadway Jesus." Does that make sense?

Jen: Ah, yes, Pete. It makes a lot of sense. I'll tell you that during the pandemic, I got my whole team together and we brought in an outside facilitator to run a session with us. And the first thing she said was, "Let's call out the power dynamics in this room." And my initial impulse (which was, P.S., completely wrong) was like, "We're all equals here."

Pete: Right. Right, right, right, right.

Jen: Um, no. What I learned from my team was that that is not how they viewed me.

Pete: Yes. I mean, your name is on the door. Your name is on the door.

Jen: Right. It was truly an awakening moment for me, where I was like, "Oh my gosh. This is not an element of my relationship with these people that I have been taking in to account at all." It was wild.

Pete: Yeah. Interesting. I wonder like, how does it change the way you show up when you realize, "Oh, wait, I might be perceived as...", it's so funny that you had that aha moment. Because it's like, again, your name is on the door. Of course you're the Broadway Jesus, it's literally Jen Waldman Studio. Like, has it changed how you've shown up around certain people or navigated certain situations? I'm so curious.

Jen: Well, what is that psychological phenomenon called...maybe you remember, and if we can't come up with it now, I'll find it later and put it in the Box O' Goodies...that when the person in a leadership role speaks first, it colors everything that is said after that.

Pete: Oh my gosh, it's on the tip of my tongue. I can't remember what it's called.

Jen: Halo Effect?

Pete: Yes, Halo Effect.

Jen: Halo Effect, okay. So I realized that a lot of the time, I was working under the assumption that the reason I was talking first was because people just sort of wanted me to break the ice, and then they would contribute. And then I was like, "Oh my gosh, Jen. You are completely contaminating the waters here.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: It's like, my husband has used this metaphor to describe something else, but if you take a glass of clear water and you take one drop of food coloring...so if I'm the food coloring and I drop it in, the whole water is going to turn red or blue or whatever the color is. Like, no part of the water gets to stay clear.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: And so, I do have to ask myself with a lot more honesty, internal honesty, "If I speak first right now, what is that going to do to this conversation?" And sometimes, the answer is, "Good things."

Pete: Right.

Jen: And sometimes, the answer is, "You're not going to learn really what you need to learn."

Pete: Yeah. Ooh, that's good. That's good. Okay, so you reminded me of two things. The first is, there's this script that I've given...I've lost count of how many leaders I've given the script, executives in particular in recent times (including the aforementioned GM), where they'll express some version of the challenge of, "Someone comes to me and is looking for direction, and it's just easier for me to give it to them."

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And on the same hand, most of them are like, "But I am totally aware that I need to get better at coaching and enabling my team to be able to do things without me always being there, because I have seven thousand other things to do. What do I do?" And the script I often give them is, "If someone comes to you saying, 'Hey, Pete. Can you tell me what I need to do about this? Or can you give me direction on this particular thing?' I'll say, 'Yes, I've got some ideas and I'm happy to share them. But first, I'm really curious what you think.'" Just that giving them the opportunity to speak first, to your point, to be the first color in the water, is I think so much more empowering and enabling for them to come up with an idea that they're enrolled in or bought in to. Plus, they might have an idea that you never thought of, which actually benefits the team and the organization a lot more. And the other thing that can happen sometimes (it's not a perfect script) is they might go, "I have no idea. I'm completely overwhelmed. I'm completely spun out. I would really just benefit from you giving me some direction." In which case, go for it. Add your color to the water. Give your idea. But I think the default of giving the other person permission first is a really useful one when it comes to a situation where you might be perceived as a Broadway Jesus or to have the power, to your point. So, that was the first thing. Let me get the other one out, and then you can react, I guess. The other thing I was just thinking is what you described, for me, makes the case for something called brainwriting. Which, I actually don't know if we've talked about on this podcast before...we probably have, at some point. Brainwriting is a concept that is not the same as brainstorming, very deliberately. Because brainstorming in certain contexts often falls victim to this Halo Effect, where one person starts sharing ideas and then everyone else kind of just falls in line or doesn't share their idea because they feel like, "Ah, that person's already said it, or that person's more senior, or whatever. So, I'm not going to brainstorm. I'm not going to share my idea." Brainwriting involves giving a set amount of time for everyone to literally write down, like on their own little notepad, their own little brainstorming, so their own ideas. And then, everyone has essentially a list. And the idea is you go around the room and everyone shares what's on their list, so that you weren't hopefully influenced by the Halo Effect. So, I don't know, I just felt like that's a little useful tool for our listeners to go to. And I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies.

Jen: That reminds me of...is it Brene Brown who called it the Turn And Learn?

Pete: Oh my god. Yes, yes, yes.

Jen: Where everyone has their piece of paper, they write their thing, and it's like you go, "One, two, three...", and everybody turns their paper over.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: And so, we're all sharing our answers to certain things at the same time. That's what that made me think of. I have a couple thoughts here. One is, I just want to reference back to an episode from our archive called Wait, which was the question, "Why am I talking," or the acronym for, "Why am I talking?"

Pete: So good. Which, by the way, I use all the time with my clients.

Jen: It's so helpful, and in really any role. But in the context we're speaking of now, in particular a leadership role, it is important that you know why you're talking, because the fact that you're talking changes everything.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: So I will definitely drop that episode into the Box O' Goodies, because it's just such a useful question.

Pete: Yeah. Now, this idea that you just said, "The fact that you're talking changes everything," I think that is so true for leaders to acknowledge and be aware of. And I think because of things like impostor syndrome or fear or doubt, it can be really hard for people to embody or realize, because they kind of think, "Oh, but me sharing my ideas...like they're crap ideas anyway. Why would anyone take them so literally or so seriously? I'm just spitballing. I'm just, you know, coming up with ideas, and I don't necessarily value my ideas in the highest regard." But I think what you're saying is so true, which is, the story you tell yourself about your ideas is very different to what other people tell yourself about your ideas, especially if you're in a senior position.

Jen: That's right. That's right. You know, a habit I've picked up over the years, Pete...and this is because I'm working mostly with artists who are constantly putting their work out there for feedback, and many of them are coming from training programs where they were really beat down and criticized in unhelpful and, in some cases, just plain old mean ways. And like, yelled at.

Pete: What?

Jen: And just like, crazy stuff like that by people in pedestal positions. I have developed this habit that I don't yell very much. But if I'm yelling, I'm yelling the most loving things at someone, like in an angry tone. Like, I'll be like, "When are we going to deal with your greatness?" That's the only kind of thing I will raise my voice around. Or like, "That is the best singing I have ever heard. How dare you?"

Pete: "How dare you?" That is so good.

Jen: But because I know that it's important to them what I think of their work, I have to take that responsibility really seriously.

Pete: Mmm. I love that, yeah. I feel like the thing we're talking about...like you mentioned this "pedestal position", which is such a nice little way of articulating as like almost a question of, "Am I in a pedestal position?" I think would be a useful question to ask yourself.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And I think a couple of things. One is, depending on the context you're in, the answer to that question might change.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So this is where I go back to the story I shared with my General Manager, where in one context, she didn't realize but she actually was on a pedestal with the person that reported in to her. But in the context of her going in to the board, she felt like she was the one looking up to someone else on a pedestal. So the question of, "Am I in a pedestal position," would have changed for her, depending on the context. And the flip side...you actually said something kind of off the cuff before we started recording this, when we were just really quickly talking about pedestals. And you said, "Depending on which way the light is going, a pedestal creates a shadow." And I feel like that is so rich, where you start to think about, "What's the shadow I'm casting as the person who may or may not realize I am on a pedestal, I am a Broadway Jesus in some contexts? And how do I be mindful of said shadow?"

Jen: Yeah. I mean, you could really run with that shadow metaphor. Because on the one hand, it's like that the other person can't catch the light. Like, it's hard to share the spotlight when you're in a physically higher position and they are in a shadow. But the other thing is, that I have learned about my own position, I don't realize sometimes that people are in the dark about information that I have that they need. But I don't realize they're in the dark about it.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Because from where I sit, I get to see, from this higher vantage point, everything that is going on. And so, I just assume everybody knows what I know.

Pete: Right. Right, right, right.

Jen: But that's not true. Some people are in the dark.

Pete: So true. Yeah. Gosh, it reminds me of like, how do you create spaces for others to be able to ask you questions? Like office hours, for example. Which is a, you know, notion that's very common in academia. But leaders I know have started incorporating it, where you basically have an hour a week and you go, "Open door policy. Pop in and ask me any question that you might have." And I'm thinking of one particular executive who absolutely loves this because, she joked about, she's dealing with like nothing but hard problems often. And if someone pops in and is like, "Hey, can you like unlock this door for me," she's like, "Oh my god, that's such an easy thing for me to unlock. Here's the information or here's the insight that you need." And she gets this like dopamine hit of like, "Oh, I'm being useful. I'm being helpful. Like, it's not always hard all the time." So it's actually almost like a gift to you, the person with who has all the information.

Jen: Yes. Because it feels really good to help people. It really does.

Pete: 100%. 100%, yeah.

Jen: Which, I have to say, that's like the two sides of the same coin when it comes to being a person who's in a pedestal position. On the one hand, it feels so nice when someone wants to come to you for help and you can help them. And then, the flip side of that is pedestals are very lonely places.

Pete: Oh, yeah.

Jen: Like, I personally don't enjoy being on a pedestal. Like, I would much rather be among the people.

Pete: Right. Yeah.

Jen: Like, you know? So, I'm uncomfortable with it. And maybe it's why I was so unaware of it for so many years.

Pete: Hmm.

Jen: I'm uncomfortable with that idea. I don't like it.

Pete: Yeah. I'm sure I mentioned this on the Broadway Jesus episode, but that idea Derek Sivers has written about, "Pedestals prevent friendships."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And he shares this story...I'll paraphrase it or butcher it, and I'll put the actual story in the Box O' Goodies. But he shares this story of being a music conference. And he was kind of overwhelmed by the magnitude of the people in the room, and he saw someone give a talk. And he's like, "Oh my god, I want to talk to that person. But like, I'm too scared. They're on a pedestal." And he goes outside to like take a deep breath and get a drink. And at the bar, he strikes up this conversation with someone who's lovely, and they have this really great chat. And as they're leaving, he's like, "Oh, here's my number." And he looks down at the card, and it's like, you know, the Head of Partnerships at Sony Music, like the guy that you want to talk to at this conference. And he goes, "Because I didn't know who it was, i.e. because I didn't see the pedestal, I was able to build a friendship with him." And I just, ah, I come back to that story all the time.

Jen: Yes. Oh, that's so good. Okay, can we just look at this from one other angle?

Pete: Please.

Jen: Because I just am coming off a coaching with a client of mine who, in the Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies framework, identifies as an Obliger, like textbook Obliger. And she's about to start meeting with a bunch of potential agents, so we were talking about these upcoming meetings and how to really be effective as a potential client. And I said to her, "So what are your concerns about working with an agent?" And she was like, "I don't...I don't get what you mean." And I was like, "I guess this is me leading the witness, because I have a major concern." And she was like, "Okay." I said, "You are such an Obliger, and you do so well when people tell you what to do." Like, the clarity of someone saying, "Do this. Try that. Go here. Make this happen," she thrives with that kind of direction. And so, I was saying to her, "My concern is that you're going to end up with someone who is in this pedestal position, they are the agent, and that all the things they tell you to do are contrary to all the things you want for yourself. So if you know that you thrive in those kinds of relationships, it is critical that you opt to work with someone whose vision is one that you can get behind, who has a moral code and like an ethical barometer that makes you feel good about yourself and in integrity." So it's just another way to look at it, because I was like, "We're not going to change how you interact. Like, you are someone who thrives when someone tells you what to do. But now, we have to make sure it's the right person with the right compass."

Pete: Right. Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's good. I like that. So to go full circle, the General Manager I was referring to, one of the questions I asked was, "Did you ask to be in the room with the board, or were you invited?" And it was obviously a loaded question, because I feel like I knew the answer. And she said, "I was invited." And as she said it, she was kind of like, "Huh." And I said, "And why do you think you're invited?" And she said something along the lines of, "Oh, they really value the way that I challenge the strategic direction of the organization."

Jen: Mmm.

Pete: And I was like, "Great." And so I feel like that's a version of what you talked about, of like, they aligned themselves with someone who is willing to do the thing that they value, which is challenge the ideas that they have. As opposed to, in your case, the Obliger, who, you know, follows the direction. This was actually like, "How do we leverage a Questioner, and put them in front of us to challenge and poke holes in our ideas?" And that's what this incredible leader does, like with her eyes closed. And so she went in and challenged the board, and it went down really well.

Jen: Wow, Pete. Today has been a reminder of the aha moment I had during the pandemic, and so I thank you for that, of the power that position holds, and how we have to really be mindful of our position and ensure that we are taking responsibility for our shadow.

Pete: Mmm-hmm. And that is The Long and The Short Of It.