The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 283 - Exercises

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jen.

Jen: Today I thought it would be fun to dig into something that comes up for me on a daily basis in an acting context, but I think might be quite applicable outside of an acting context, and that is the difference between a note, an adjustment, and an exercise.

Pete: Ooh. I mean, this entire podcast is about taking learnings from different worlds, i.e. the acting world, and seeing how we might apply them to other parts of our life. So, I am curious. A note, an adjustment, and an exercise. NAE, if you will. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: You knew I had to turn it into an acronym, you know I had to.

Jen: You had to do it, had to do it. So the first time I really put a name to this, which is so crazy because I've been coaching and teaching for twenty years now, was last year. I was invited to present at the National Alliance of Acting Teachers. And we can get into all the details of that another time, but part of what I was doing was sharing my own methods and philosophies and ideas about how to actually coach actors. And for so many of the people in the room, my approach was just not something that they had seen before, which was very, very exciting.

Pete: Huh.

Jen: And I guess I didn't realize the way I was doing things was all that unique, but apparently it was.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And, you know, on the heels of that, I really had to ask myself like, "What is the difference here? Like, what are they responding to?"

Pete: Wow, I have so many questions about the cognitive dissonance of that all, of like, "Oh, my method is not common. It is unique." But anyway, that's a separate conversation.

Jen: Yeah, that's a whole other episode.

Pete: It really is. The note, the adjustment, and the exercise...I'm guessing this distinction was the main crux of what people were like, "What? I didn't know those three things were different."

Jen: Yes, or that those are three different tactics one might employ in order to achieve the same outcome. As soon as I said, "...same outcome," I was like, "But really?" Because the feeling of the person who's on the receiving end of it is quite different, so the outcome is different for the person receiving it. But the outcome for you, the giver of the note, you know what you're trying to help them do and then you're getting them to be able to do it.

Pete: But there are different ways to get to that said desired outcome. That makes sense. That makes sense.

Jen: Exactly. So okay, let me just set the context in which any of these things might be used. So in an acting context, theatrically speaking, the actor or actors would perform something or rehearse something, and then you, the director, or you, the coach, or you, the person who is responsible for shaping the performance, would essentially give them the rundown of all the things that you want them to do differently. And hopefully, also tell them some things they're doing great.

Pete: Yes. So it's a form of feedback, right? Like, it's like someone has done something for you, and now, I need to give them some feedback to try and make it even better.

Jen: Right. And so, notes often can feel kind of like a list of things that people want you to do differently.

Pete: Right. Like, "Stand taller." Is that an example? I get that note a lot, because I'm so slouchy.

Jen: Sure, sure. You could get the note to stand taller. Absolutely.

Pete: Shout out, mum.

Jen: So, something for me would sort of fall into the category of a note is if the person is able to articulate what they want the result to be. Whereas an adjustment is more like a suggestion of how you might get there, but you also have some of your own input. So like, I could give you the note, "Stand taller." Or I could give you the adjustment and kind of frame it as a question, "I wonder what it might look like if he stood taller," or, "What can we do to make it feel like he's proud of his height?"

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Something like that.

Pete: Yes. Or the one I've often been told by physios...I don't know why we're using my height as the example, but hey, here we are. "Imagine there's someone that's pulling a string above your head," that's the adjustment. And in doing that, I'm like, "Oh, I just stood taller. I see. I see. I see."

Jen: Okay, so maybe we just got to potentially an exercise, which is the way I coach.

Pete: Oh, okay. Right, I'm jumping ahead. I'm jumping ahead.

Jen: No, no, no. Because if I were doing this as an exercise, I wouldn't actually tell you, Pete, what I'm trying to achieve.

Pete: Oh, nice.

Jen: So I would say something like, you know, "Let's experiment. Like, what if we did the piece as if someone was pulling you from the top of your head?" But I'm not telling you that it's because I want you to stand proud or stand taller. I just give you something to try, to accomplish, like a task, an exercise. And then on the heels of that, I can then affirm that what happened because you behaved as though someone was pulling a string out of the top of your head is that you stood taller. And that was the result. But instead of me saying, "Can you please get me to this result," I come up with an exercise that I think is most likely going to unlock the thing I'm looking for. But if I front load it and say what I'm looking for, then they're wondering if they're pleasing me, or getting it right, or whatever it might be.

Pete: Have they done the thing? Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is brilliant. I feel like this applies...I mean, I'm using the example of height because I've had these cues like with strength training a lot. I've done a bunch of swim coaching, working with a swim coach. And one in particular, I'm just realizing, was really good at the exercise component. So much so that me being, you know, like someone who's curious and does a bunch of coaching, I'd be like trying to analyze, "What are they trying to get at here with this exercise? Because I feel like there's a hidden motive." So, I'm down with this. This is great. One of the questions I'm curious about is, what's your assertion on why exercises are, or may be more effective?

Jen: Well, I have a couple thoughts about this. One is that (and this is based on feedback I get from my own clients) when you give someone an exercise, there's like a specific task at hand and they'll know if they did the task. So, it sort of like simplifies what we are going for.

Pete: Hmm. Yeah.

Jen: So, that's part of it. The other part is, me sharing my desired result can make the person I'm saying that to feel like there's a deficit in how they're currently approaching the work.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So this is a totally judgment-free way to help someone grow, and then to acknowledge the growth rather than acknowledging the weakness, which might make them self-conscious. And in many cases, it's not even a weakness. It's just like something to try.

Pete: Yeah. I'm so on board with this, but I have so many more questions. And feel free to tell me I've railroaded this conversation.

Jen: I love it. No, ask me questions. I'm getting clarity for myself.

Pete: Great. So, I've done the exercise. I've imagined in my head, I'm like, "Okay, I've imagined there's a string. And I've done what I think is required for the exercise." What happens next? Is it that you would say, "Here's what I noticed," or is it that you would say, "Pete, what did you notice in doing that exercise first?" Or is it a combo of both?

Jen: I'm laughing because people make fun of me, because it's so predictable.

Pete: Of course.

Jen: I go, "How was that?"

Pete: Ah, nice. Yeah, okay. So you do, you ask them to interpret what has happened?

Jen: Yes. And very often, they will tell me what I would have told them.

Pete: Right. Yes, yes.

Jen: So then they've made the discovery, which sort of leads into something you said to me once, which is, "Don't steal the aha moment."

Pete: Yeah. "Don't steal the revelation."

Jen: Oh. "Don't steal the revelation," that's how you say it. Yeah.

Pete: That phrase comes from a friend of mine, Paul Jun, who's incredibly brilliant. He's based in Brooklyn. And I'm going to put a link to Paul's website in the Box O' Goodies. It's just worth checking out. He's just one of the coolest dudes and the smartest dudes. But anyway, we work together as coaches in an online workshop that we've mentioned many times before, called the altMBA with Seth Godin, and a bunch of coaches around the world. And one of the things he used to say as a shorthand is, "When you're asking a question when you're coaching someone in that context, don't steal the revelation from them. Try and create the conditions for them to have the revelation themselves." And the way we did that was ask questions.

Jen: Right.

Pete: But in your context...well, I guess you do ask a question. You say, "How was that for you?" You try and get them to have the aha moment themselves, rather than telling them. For what it's worth, the way I always think about this is when I was at high school, I used to love maths. I was a nerd. And I used to love doing like a huge dirty great big algebra equation...said no one ever, but said Pete. And you would have like half a page of working out to find x. And you'd be like, "How do I find x? I divide this. I add this. I multiply over there." And you do this like huge outrageous equation, and all of a sudden, you get x = 17. And I'd flip to the back of the textbook after twenty minutes of doing this equation, and I'd see x = 17, and I'd be like fist pumping to myself in the classroom, that I got the answer right.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And the joy for me was in going through the process to get the result. Versus if you were sitting next to me, Jen, and you said at the start of that, "Oh, x = 17," I would have been like, "Oh, okay. But what do I do with that? I didn't learn anything. I didn't go through the process. I didn't get the aha. I didn't get the revelation." So anyway, that's how I think about this.

Jen: I'm laughing right now because literally in the other room, my daughter's on with her algebra tutor. And if she heard this conversation, she'd be like, "What are you talking about?" Now, there are circumstances where it doesn't make sense to offer an exercise. It makes sense to give a note.

Pete: Yes.

Jen: Or offer an adjustment. For example, I had someone send me a press release this morning, that they are planning to send out, and she just wanted my eye on it. That was not the moment to be like, "Here's an exercise for you."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: The first thing I said to her was, "I think you need to make an adjustment, because these sentences are redundant. So can you go in and change that?" She did that, and then she sent it back to me. And then I said, "My big note is that these two sentences should be flipped."

Pete: Nice.

Jen: So, there are absolutely circumstances where it does not make sense.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But when you're trying to help someone grow, and discover more about themselves, and believe in their own potential, and find the courage to take risks, exercises are where it's at, baby.

Pete: I love this. In my head, I'm scanning through this one swimming coach in particular that I worked with who was phenomenal. And she would say things like, "I want you to swim and act as if there's a magnet on the top of your head, pulling you to the other end of the pool." And that was it. That was the exercise. So I'd swim, like pretending like there's a magnet. And then I'd get to the end and she goes, "What did you notice?" And I was like, "Well, I feel like it was easier. I was more efficient in the water. I swam with less strokes," and like all of these observations. And she'd just like smile and nod at the end of the pool, and be like, "Okay, now try this one." And I was constantly like, "I feel like you're a genius, but I can't work out why. What's happening? What is going on?" It's the Jen Waldman genius. It's the exercise. This is good. I really like this.

Jen: Yeah. I will never really forget, when I did this thing for the National Alliance of Acting teachers, I brought two of my clients with me to demonstrate what it looks like for us to work together.

Pete: Hmm. Amazing.

Jen: And shout out to my two clients (who I'm sure are listening, and they know who they are) because they were so incredible. Anyway, so one of them gets up. He does this performance, which is mind-bogglingly good. And I give him an exercise to do, so then he does the exercise. And so then, I turned to the teachers and I'm like, "Okay, so now we've seen two passes. They're different. What's the next step?" And one of them said something to the effect of, "I'm going to tell him that it's just not reaching far enough. It's not reaching the balcony," or something like that. And he goes, "Is that what you would say to him?" And I was like, "No, I would not say that. I wouldn't say that. Instead, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to create an exercise that requires him to have a relationship with something that's farther away from him. So we're going to come up with something and I'm going to get the same result as what you're looking for, but he's going to feel good about himself."

Pete: He's going to feel awesome, totally.

Jen: Right.

Pete: He'll feel awesome. And it kind of sounds fun, too. It's way funner to try different exercises.

Jen: So fun. It's so fun.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: And just on the heels of that experience, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I really wish more people...were like me." No, I'm kidding. No, I just, I wish more people had this tool in their back pocket to be able to craft an exercise that will get someone where you want them to go, because they'll have a much more enjoyable time getting there.

Pete: I absolutely agree. And I'm having an aha moment...which may be obvious to some or you, but feels like an aha moment to me...which is, we have the same desire in different contexts. In that, when I run a leadership development workshop, I'm very intentional in trying not to be like what I know a lot of leadership development workshops are, which is, "Here's a slide deck. Here's a series of content that is more of a like, you know, a lecture that you might expect when you go to uni. And then, there's often some break outs." In my mind, I'm like, "It's funner, it's more effective, and it's more engaging and more interesting if I'm part of a workshop where there's an exercise or an activity, and I go and do that with my peers. And then, someone says something in that discussion that I then remember and I apply to the exercise," and on and on it goes. And in my mind, it's more effective and it's just fun to create those conditions for learning to happen, rather than trying to tell people what to learn.

Jen: Yes. Well, you just summed it up, Pete.

Pete: I feel like this is becoming a PSA.

Jen: Well, you know what? That's a good thing.

Pete: Can I ask another question?

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: I feel like I know the answer to this, because I've seen you in action and I am lucky enough to spend a lot of time with you, and your brain is so brilliant. But I want this on the record. Do you make up the exercises on the fly? Or do you have a set list of like, "These are my exercises."

Jen: The answer is yes and yes. You know, I've been doing this for twenty years now. So I have a library of exercises that I've created over the two decades, and I know exactly which scenarios I'm going to pull them out for. That being said, every week, I add something new to the library.

Pete: Right. I've seen you make up exercises on the spot, that I'm like, "I'm sure Jen has never said that before." And it's so effective. And I think it's part of your genius. And it's really inspiring, actually, for me to think about and for listeners to think about, "How might you create exercises, create the conditions for others to learn without requiring this set list of scripts or tools or techniques?" Yes, they can be helpful. But I think the fun as the facilitator, as the instructor, as a teacher, as the coach, is, can you start to create them in the moment? That just feels exciting to me, and motivating and inspiring to me. So yeah, I'm going to try for more of that. I want to be more like Jen.

Jen: I'm just thinking right now that when I'm in rehearsals, sometimes we will find ourselves in a rut with scripted material. And, you know, I work in the theater. The playwright is the god we all pray to. And we try to get everything letter perfect, down to the punctuation. We try to quote what's on the page. But there will be times in rehearsal where we're getting bogged down in something, so I'll create an exercise that takes us way off the page, just to like get something else in there. And then we go back to the page, and what is on the page is suddenly so much richer. So I could also see in environments where there is some sort of like structure you're beholden to, or rigidity, that even in those environments, you can step away from that to see what else there is, and then come back to it and find so much more depth and nuance and meaning and fresh ideas.

Pete: Yeah. I would say not just even in those environments, but especially in those environments.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And I'm reminded of Adam Grant's latest book, called Hidden Potential. (I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies.) It's really good. But one of the things I took away the most was, there's like just a couple of pages, I think it is, or one chapter on having play in learning and including play in learning. And for me, I interpret that as the leadership development work that I do, and I start to think about, "How might I add some more playfulness in those workshops?" And I think what you're describing is a version of that, of, "Can we take people out of the stuckness, out of the staleness, and create the conditions for something fun to happen or funny to happen or just like completely pointless to happen that wasn't even part of the original point? But then, to bring us back (which is part of the point) to the task at hand." So I just, yeah...I mean, I'll include a link to the book. But I feel like you are following the evidence that Adam Grant has written about in that book.

Jen: Well, you know me, Pete. I love science.

Pete: She sure does, folks. She sure does. Alright, well, I have four index cards full of notes. And I feel like this has been a public service announcement that I needed to hear, to think about, "How might you create more exercises in the work that you do?"

Jen: And Pete, if you want to come learn how I actually decided to run with this idea of teaching teachers and coaches, I'm going to be hosting a retreat, an intensive, a workshop, a weekend-long learning experience in April at the studio, for anyone who wants to come learn how to come up with exercises.

Pete: There we go. Well, I'm going to start researching flights.

Jen: See you there.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.