The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 285 - Gumption Tools

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Okay, several weeks ago, I made a joke to you offline that I was going to tee up the episode I'm about to tee up now, and I said it as a complete joke. And then today in one of my coachings, one of my clients had something difficult to say, [singing] and she sang it to me because she was so uncomfortable saying the words.

Pete: Oh my god.

Jen: So I thought today, we maybe would actually record a conversation about why some things are easier to say when you sing them.

Pete: Why are things easier to say when you sing them? I am curious. I probably should have sung that, but here we are. [singing] This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: Oh my god, that was one of my favorite conversations because you sang for like five minutes.

Jen: But the thing that's so funny is, I don't use my singing voice when I do that. I like intentionally use a bad singing voice.

Pete: No, no, it has to deliberately be like, I'm not actually trying to sing properly.

Jen: [singing] I'm not trying to sing properly.

Pete: Which is fine for you, but like for me, there's not much distinction between me trying to sing and me actually pretending like I don't know how to sing.

Jen: Ah, okay. So Pete, when this happened today, I was like, "Well, maybe I will actually do this episode." And I also want to think about, what are some of the other things that we do that are kind of quirky, that help us get out difficult things? And like, why do they work? And when is it appropriate to to employ them? Like, [singing] "I'm so sorry, we're terminating your job," is probably not the right moment.

Pete: Oh my god. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Ah, that's funny. That is funny. There must be some like psychology or some research behind, what is it about singing that enables us to say things that perhaps we're feeling really uncomfortable saying? Is it because there's some levity in the fact (especially when you're not trying to sing it well) that, "This is a game. I'm just singing," or, "These are just words, but if I add a melody it kind of...they don't sound scary." I don't know. It's just, it's fascinating. I'm fascinated by it. So wait, someone actually did this to you unprompted? Because we were joking about this like two weeks ago.

Jen: Right. And then in a coaching today, I was chatting with one of my clients and she was calling herself out for something that was or was not happening in her career, and sang it to me. And I was like, "Ah, there it is. There it is."

Pete: That is hilarious.

Jen: So I think that the singing piece is one of the ways to practice Rule #6, which we have not spoken about in a long time. So can you define for our listeners, what is Rule #6?

Pete: Rule #6 is one of my core values. The original definition or idea concept comes from Rosamund and Benjamin Zander, who wrote about it and have spoken about it a lot in their original book, The Art of Possibility. I'll put a link to it in the Box O' Goodies. Such a great book, which essentially has a bunch of practices or principles for living a life to spark and be more open to possibility. And it has so many good takeaways. Like, I feel like each of the principles or philosophies could be their own book. And Rule #6 is kind of articulated through this story that Benjamin and Rosamund share in the book. And the story basically goes, there's a prime minister...I don't actually know if this is true or if it's fiction. But the story goes, there's a prime minister sitting in a room having a meeting, and his or her assistant enters the room and says, "Prime Minister, there's an emergency. There's a phone call. You have to take it." And he says, "Don't forget Rule #6." And the assistant is like, "Of course. So sorry," and walks away. And then like thirty seconds later, the same thing happens. "Oh my gosh, there's another emergency. And it's a different person this time, and we need you here. And we need you there." And he says, "Ah, don't forget Rule #6." And the person that he's having a meeting with leans over and says, "I have to ask, what the hell is Rule #6? People like understand and obey this rule as if it's gospel." And he just says something to the tune of, "Well, Rule #6 is, 'Don't take yourself so goddamn seriously.' That in this office and in my life, we're trying to cultivate a space where we don't take ourselves so seriously, that an emergency is the absolute be all and end all." Now, I feel like part of me in that story, I'm like, "Yeah, but you're a prime minister. There could actually be a legitimate emergency."

Jen: Right?

Pete: So like, there's a lot of levity in your Rule #6. But the premise is basically: Don't take yourself too seriously. I should have just said that. That was a long way of getting to the same point.

Jen: But you got us there, Peter Shepherd.

Pete: Don't take yourself too seriously. And I think you're right. I think singing in an obnoxiously outrageously out-of-tune voice is a beautiful example of Rule #6.

Jen: Right? So like, I'm thinking about how many times I've witnessed this but like didn't clock it until I made this joke about possibly recording this episode, where I will have a client say something like, "Oh my gosh, I have this huge callback coming up. [singing] And the most powerful person in the business will be there." And you're like, "Right, right." It kind of like gives you permission to say the thing that would otherwise have stayed in your mouth.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like it also gives other people permission to laugh with you and to have empathy for, "Oh, wow. That's a funny situation. You're singing to the most powerful person in the room. [singing] I can empathize with that." You know? Like, I can imagine how hard that is because you sang it to me.

Jen: I feel like on the heels of this episode, instead of getting emails, we're about to get a lot of voice memos.

Pete: Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait. We should make a compilation.

Jen: Oh, gosh. Okay, so Rule #6...so here's a second thing that I've noticed, that I've actually employed sometimes in my classes and I've seen people do in other circumstances, which is, when you have something kind of challenging to say or you're feeling somewhat sheepish or embarrassed, to actually physically turn around.

Pete: Oh, wow. And say it to the wall or something?

Jen: Right. So I had a client once who was trying something new in class, and it was just making her so flustered. And she was like, "Is it okay if I do this away from you first?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure. Give it a shot." And she was like, "Great." And she literally turned around with her back to me, did the song, and then turned back around and was like, "Okay, I'm ready."

Pete: Oh my gosh, that's so wild. Ah, that's so funny.

Jen: But it like gave her the gumption somehow to move forward. It was like halfsies doing it. So she wasn't hiding from doing the thing, she was just hiding from me.

Pete: That's so funny. But even then, it's like not even hiding from you. It's hiding from the story she tells herself about singing in front of you.

Jen: Right. And then, she was able to do it.

Pete: Wild. So I like this idea of like, these are tools that give us gumption. Gumption tools.

Jen: Gumption tools, I really like that. And they kind of need the other person's buy-in. It kind of like levels the playing field. You know, in the singing context, I don't think you give someone warning and you're like, "And I'm about to sing this very uncomfortable thing." But in the turning away situation, she was like, "I'm going to do this facing away from you. And then, I'll come back and do it with you." So, the singing sort of telegraphs that there's something uncomfortable happening. The, "I'm going to turn away and say this not to your eyes at first. And then, I'll come back and do it to your eyes," also has this sort of like buy-in from the other person.

Pete: Hmm. So okay, this is what this is reminding me of. You know when you are witnessing someone do something, like give a talk or sing a song, and they will say something like, "I'm really nervous about this. I hate public speaking. I'm absolutely petrified. My heart is racing through my chest and I don't want to do it, but here goes."

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: And immediately when someone says that, you can like sort of feel the audience like collectively lean in, like start rooting for this person, start cheering for this person, like, "Come on, you got this. You can do this. You can talk. You can get it out. Like, this is great." I'm almost more engaged, because they said the hard thing at the start.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: And I feel like what you're articulating is a version of the same thing, which is like demonstrating vulnerability or humility by acknowledging you need to turn away because it's really hard for you, automatically cues the other person to like start to be, "Oh, okay, this is hard for you. I'm here. I'm in. I want you to do this well. I'm here for you." I just feel like it's a version of that.

Jen: Yes. Oh, that is such a great call out. Because you're essentially inviting the empathy of the other person, because you're not hiding the fact that you're uncomfortable. You're giving your discomfort almost like a gift to the other person.

Pete: Totally. And I think in the same way, if you sang it beautifully, you probably wouldn't have the same effect as when you sing it in a ridiculous voice. Because there's like a vulnerability in singing something in a bad voice in front of someone, and they'll be like, "Oh, okay. This is fine. The levity is there. I'm with you. Like, I get it. It's okay."

Jen: Right. And what's really funny is, what happens is what has happened between us during this recording, which is, "I sing something, therefore you respond in song." It's like such a weird impulse.

Pete: It's so true. It's so true. And if listeners knew some of our sing-a-longs off air, it would be very funny. I feel like we do this all the time without realizing it.

Jen: Okay, I came up with one other gumption tool.

Pete: Nice.

Jen: And I know that this has parallels in real life because I've experienced it. But I probably wouldn't have noticed it as much if I wasn't someone working in the theater, where I'm actually like looking at stage pictures all the time and like trying to figure out how to make things visually story-driven. One of my favorite kinds of scenes is a scene in which the characters are looking at something and not at each other. So they might be seated side by side in a car, or they're at a museum admiring a painting, or they're standing on a bridge looking out, or on a precipice, or something like that, where they're both looking at something but not necessarily at each other. And it's obvious that they're talking to each other, because they are the two people in the scene. But because they're not looking at each other, they're able to say things they might not have otherwise been able to say. And as an audience member, I get to witness the private moments of them working up the courage, and then the aftermath of having said the thing.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah, I love that.

Jen: And where I see the parallels in my own life are when I sometimes go on walk and talks with friends. You know, I live right on Riverside Park, so we'll go into the park and go for a walk. And it is amazing to me how deep the conversations can get when you are walking side by side, instead of staring each other down.

Pete: Totally.

Jen: And this feels sort of like a catch-22 because I believe also that eye contact is the key to world peace. So, it's interesting how eye contact used tactically can achieve different results.

Pete: Mmm. Yeah. This idea of like walking side by side, either metaphorically or literally, is something I hear and have spoken to as a tool that I use when working with leaders about having difficult conversations all the time. And I say metaphorically because sometimes I think just the idea of, you might be on a on a Zoom call but like if you can imagine what it's like to be side by side walking towards something together, i.e., “We're trying to resolve a conflict together and head towards the same outcome. We're not adversarially staring each other down and like arguing or combative with one another. We're actually heading towards the same goal.” And I think that, metaphorically, can be useful. But also literally, it's really useful to go for walks and talks because the eye contact, especially if one person in particular is uncomfortable or if there's a seniority already in the conversation, to reduce that or minimize that. Minimizing the eye contact, I actually think, is a good thing.

Jen: I think I remember seeing a video about Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, talking about the importance of walking side by side with people.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Where did I see this? You're nodding like maybe we saw it at the same place. Was this part of the altMBA?

Pete: I don't think so. But I'm nodding because I'm very familiar with Satya Nadella's philosophy for leadership, and the culture of Microsoft is on par with a lot of the things that I like to speak about and we like to speak about. And he has deliberately come in to Microsoft and said, "We're going to have a learn-it-all culture as opposed to an ignore-it-all culture. I'm going to value humility. I'm going to have difficult conversations, where required. We're going to reduce the silos. We're going to like have transparent communication." So I'm nodding because I'm like, that sounds exactly like something that Satya Nadella would be advocating for.

Jen: Awesome. I was worried that maybe we had [singing] gone through an intimate experience together and I had forgotten about it. Oops.

Pete: Ah. [singing] That would be awkward, that would be awkward. Okay, two things I wrote down...I don't know if they're gumption tools or just random ideas that you sparked in my brain. The first was whether the prompt of drawing it might be useful for some people.

Jen: Oooh...yes.

Pete: Of using a completely different part of your brain, by drawing the difficult conversation or drawing what it would feel like to have the difficult conversation. I use this activity of like, "Draw the person next to you, or, "Draw you doing your favorite activity with your left hand and show it to the person next to you." I use these kinds of drawing icebreaker activities all the time, because especially if you use the left hand or the opposite hand trick, no one does a good drawing and it completely levels the playing field of like, "Oh, here we are, all ridiculously learning or trying to figure out how to do something that we don't know how to do. And we're not comfortable doing it. We don't want to share it. But here we are, sharing it. And we're senior leaders and we're worried about what other people think of us, and blah, blah, blah." In my mind, drawing it with your opposite hand is similar to singing it badly because it's probably not going to go well.

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Which is kind of the point.

Jen: I remember over the summer, you came in to do a session with some of my clients in the summer coaching program. And you had them draw how they were feeling or like what it was like to be them at the beginning of the session and at the end of the session. I watched that recording. And those drawings were funny and profound. And I think you're right, they were putting to paper things that they would not have been willing to say out of their mouths.

Pete: Right. I think so too, yeah. So I don't know, maybe that's a gumption tool as well. The other one...I don't know if this is a gumption tool, per se, but it just reminds me of this writing prompt that you have talked about before, where sometimes you might be struggling to do some writing. And you had come up with a bunch of prompts, like, "Start the sentence with Jen's angry voice," and so you start the paragraph with, "Listen, asshole."

Jen: Yep, that's right.

Pete: And deliberately play up your anger in the writing to get it out of your head. And then, you can go back and clean up and mop it up. But like, just that prompt or the tool permission or the gumption tool of, "Listen, asshole." I wonder if you could...I mean, you'd have to be careful which context. But I wonder if you could do that verbally as well, like, "Listen, asshole. I've got to tell you something right now and it's not going to be comfortable, but you need to sit down and you need to take it and you need to listen."

Jen: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you'd have to preface it with something like, "I'm going to put on my angry coach hat for a minute. Listen, asshole."

Pete: Right, right.

Jen: I'm laughing because my daughter does this character...actually, all of her friends at school do this character that they call Chon.

Pete: Chon.

Jen: Or Sean with like a hard "ch". I'm not sure of the character's name. But when something is weird or uncomfortable, [in a weird voice] they do this voice where they sort of like go into this character. Because it's easier to say [in a weird voice] what is wrong with this situation.

Pete: Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. That is amazing. Alright, well, I feel like...I don't know. I feel like this is helpful, is what I was going to say. Like, rating our podcast myself. [singing] And now I feel awkward, now I feel awkward.

Jen: Well, listeners, we cannot wait to hear your voice memos where you sing to us all of your uncomfortable thoughts. And if you have additional gumption tools you'd like to share with us, [singing] you can always email us at hello@thelongandtheshortpodcast.com.

Pete: Ooh, I need to recover. And that [singing] is The Long and The Short Of It.