The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 287 - Feedback in Three Acts

Transcript:

Jen: Hello, Peter.

Pete: Hello, Jennifer.

Jen: Strangely, you and I both delivered workshops on feedback last week, simultaneously but unbeknownst to us, which was kind of wild.

Pete: Until recently, where I was like, "Oh, I ran this workshop yesterday on feedback," and you were like, "I ran a workshop yesterday on feedback as well. That's weird."

Jen: I know, it's kind of weird. And what I wanted to share with you today was the Venn diagram that I found between feedback and dramatic structure.

Pete: Wow. I did not know what that other circle was going to be. Dramatic structure is not what I expected. Now, you know the only thing I love more than an acronym is a Venn diagram, so I'm already excited about this episode. Let's find out more. Feedback and dramatic structure. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Jen: Yes, so I decided to look at feedback through the lens of the three act structure.

Pete: Uh-huh.

Jen: So, we could call this "Feedback in Three Acts".

Pete: Nice.

Jen: So, there are two ways to talk about this. I'll share both of them, in case someone out there listening prefers one over the other. So, one way to think about dramatic structure is the plot emerges, the plot develops, the plot concludes. Also known as (here's your second way to talk about it) setup, confrontation, resolution.

Pete: This is like my oversimplified...this is like beginning, middle, and end. Right?

Jen: Well...

Pete: Or not, sorry.

Jen: Yes, and the reason we don't use "beginning, middle, and end" is because the story actually began before the plot emerged, and the story continues after the plot resolves. This is just the part of the story that we get to see.

Pete: Ooh, I like that. I like that. That's a great clarification. I find that really helpful.

Jen: And so, I was thinking a lot recently about why feedback can feel so challenging, or sometimes it feels like the person just does not get you at all, or like, "Are we on different planets?" And what occurred to me is that as stories evolve, using this three act structure, there are some characters that appear in all three acts of the play. But there are some characters, you don't even meet them until Act Two. Or like, big twist, you might not even meet the character until Act Three. And so, when we're thinking about feedback, has the giver of the feedback been a part of your Act One? Like, do they know the setup? Have you filled them in on the setup? Or have they come into the picture when the plot is developing? Or when the "confrontation"...it's not my favorite word, but when the confrontation is happening? And there's no right or wrong, necessarily. But like, it's a good way to sort of understand that you have more of the story than they might have. And/or, could you bring people in sooner?

Pete: Yeah. So you, in that example, being the feedback receiver.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So, let me see if I follow. I think I do. I like this as a way for me, as a feedback receiver, to filter and process feedback. That if I receive a piece of feedback on something, and I'm like, "Hmm. That's sort of rubbing me the wrong way, that feedback," or, "I'm not sure that they quite understood what I was trying to do. What's with that," I might actually look at this and go, "Oh, that's because they don't have the context of the plot emerging and the plot developing. They've just come in when the plot's concluding, and they've gone, 'You should have thought about this,' and you're like, 'But the reason I didn't think about that is, I was deliberate about not thinking about that because that was what happened all the way back here.' But they don't know that." So, it's almost like a sense making tool.

Jen: Yes, that's right. You know, when you work on a play, you tend to work on a play in order. And so, as the actor and as the director, you're pretty good at keeping track of what characters know and don't know. But when you're working on a film, you're shooting things out of order. And one of the things that actors have to keep track of is, who knows what?

Pete: Yeah. That's wild, isn't it? Yeah.

Jen: Yeah.

Pete: It makes so much sense. But I feel like the layman interpretation, i.e. my own interpretation, of how you shoot a movie is, "Yeah, you just like start with the first scene. And you slowly, sequentially, work your way through the movie." Like, of course it doesn't work that way.

Jen: No, that would be extremely expensive.

Pete: Right. Right, right. Yeah, like, "There's a huge explosion of everything in Scene One. Now, we've got to rebuild it for Scene Two."

Jen: Right? Right? Exactly, exactly. So the reason I started thinking about this, Pete, is, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who works in casting. And we had...should I say we were fighting? We were having a heated discussion.

Pete: A robust conversation.

Jen: A robust conversation about this particular idea. And then, it occurred to me that the reason he and I were butting heads about it was because of the three act structure. I said to him, "You don't have any involvement in this part of the actor's life, until they've already gone through an entire process with me before they get to you. So we're talking about two totally different perspectives, which I think then means we're both right."

Pete: Right.

Jen: "But if the actor is trying to get you to understand what they're doing, they might need to share with you some of the context or try to get you involved in the story sooner." So anyway, that's where it came from. And I just, I'm seeing the world through this lens right now. Because it really struck me, like, "Wow, this is where a lot of disconnect can come from, and/or a lot of harmony could be created."

Pete: Right. I mean, I really want to like just highlight that that feels like provocation, like a provoking thought, that, "We're actually both right." That, If I only knew the context that the feedback was given you, I'd probably give the same feedback," is kind of how I'm interpreting that. Because of their worldview, i.e. maybe they've come in at like the last tiny part of this plot conclusion, of course they would say that.

Jen: Right.

Pete: They're right to say that. You would say that, because you haven't seen all this other work. So it's not to dismiss them as, "You're an idiot. Your feedback is terrible, and you're so wrong," it's actually a challenge to go, "Huh. So, how are they right? Well, they're right because they don't know this, this, this, this, and this." So, I could still take that feedback and maybe there's still a learning from it. Or, I could remind myself that, "No, I've thought about that already, in the plot emerging or in the plot developing. And they just don't realize that yet. So, I don't need to take on board all of that feedback."

Jen: Yeah. So let me give you a real life example of this.

Pete: This is fun. I'm excited. I feel like I...just quietly, I wish I would have had this conversation with you prior to running my feedback workshop, because I feel like it would have been so much better. I would have used this, for sure. This is so good.

Jen: So I have clients who, of course, are auditioning by putting themselves on tape and sending in material that has been requested of them. In which case, both parties have the same context. "This is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it. This is what it's for." But sometimes, those same clients are asked to like, "Just send me what you have," and they're not asked for a specific piece from the show or from the office that they're being requested by. So, they kind of have to use best guesses.

Pete: Mmm. Interesting.

Jen: Okay. So I have been conducting some experiments with some clients about how the feedback on these videos will change if they send the exact same video, but change the description in the YouTube link and add a title card at the beginning.

Pete: No way. Alright.

Jen: And what is amazing, Pete, is we have now, on multiple occasions, sent the exact same video, with a different and more provocative or contextualizing description, and have gotten feedback as if it is a different video.

Pete: Wow. That's wild.

Jen: Isn't that wild?

Pete: Yeah. This is not exactly the same, but it just reminded me of this story of...I'm not super proud of this story. But when I was a young, frustrated, self-entitled employee in a company, I had a boss whose style I disagreed with slightly, and he had a process of giving me feedback on proposals that I would be putting together for new clients that we were hoping to work with. (I'll never forget this.) There was one particular day where I got so frustrated about the feedback process that I literally sent him a slide deck that was his, like it was literally his slide deck. And I changed the client name and sent it to him, and he red penned the whole thing. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, there you go. That's it. It's not even me. It's just, this is just like...this is what he has to do." So I don't even know if that fits with this, but it just reminded me of that funny story.

Jen: Oh, what a dirty little secret. That's really funny.

Pete: I know. Twenty-three-year-old Pete thought he knew everything, and thought he'd play a trick on his manager. Yeah.

Jen: Ah. Well, in this case, I'm not sure that we're playing a trick. But what we are doing is demonstrating to ourselves that context really helps.

Pete: So to clarify, the description is playing a part of like the plot emerging. Is that what you're saying? Like, you're adding context that means that when they get to the video, they're like halfway through the story or towards the end of the story, because they've had these other pieces of context that have helped them get there. Is that what you're saying?

Jen: Yes. So, it would be the difference between...let's say, I have decided to do a monologue from a fairly new slapstick comedy.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: Okay? But the only thing I put in the title of the video is the name of the play.

Pete: Right.

Jen: And then, the second pass, I might write, "From so and so's brand new slapstick comedy, title of play." Now, they know that it's supposed to be funny. It's supposed to be slapstick.

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: And then, maybe I even add a descriptor of what the scene is, "The spit take scene from so and so's brand new slapstick comedy."

Pete: Nice.

Jen: So the way you receive the work is different, because you have more information to process it with.

Pete: Yeah, I love that. Okay, so one of the things I love most about this is, it puts the onus on the person seeking feedback to almost ask for what you need, or almost set enough context so that you get feedback on the right thing. You get what you need from that feedback. I've seen you do this really well, when you might have a corporate workshop that you're running (and I'm so jealous that you have the ability to do this so quickly), you'll say to some of your community, "Do you mind coming in and giving me some feedback? I want to do a dry run of this workshop."

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And inherent in how you set it up (because I've seen and I've heard you do this), you kind of say to them, "Pretend like you're a leader working in a corporate organization, and you've just stepped into this workshop, and you're learning about storytelling. That's your context. Go. Now, we're going to get into the workshop." So you're providing this like framing of who they are, so that they can receive the feedback, hopefully, through that lens. Which then, gives you what you need, that is useful for you to make it better.

Jen: Exactly. And sometimes, you are lucky enough to get to move the chess pieces around as the plot is emerging.

Pete: Right.

Jen: Now sometimes, to our earlier point, you don't have that, and someone comes into the mix when you're already off and running.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Maybe you give them some context and/or maybe you give yourself some grace, that, "This is where we are in the plot."

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: Like, "Let me just take a breath, before I lose it."

Pete: Right. So true. I'm thinking about the pre-recorded courses that I've been doing recently, which I mentioned on a previous episode. I've been building a bunch of pre-recorded leadership development courses for some big clients here in Australia, and I've sent them to some people for some feedback. And every now and then, I get like a piece of feedback that is like, you know, "Oh, the bookshelf color in the background kind of distracted me from this final video." And I'm kind of like, "You know what? That's so far down the path of like the end of the conclusion. That's almost not even the conclusion." I'm like, "I'm not going to change the color of the bookshelf, and then re-record this entire video."

Jen: Right.

Pete: What I was hoping to hear is, "Is this useful as content for you, if you were a leader?"

Jen: Right.

Pete: So I chose to ignore some of that feedback, which I feel like is worth just saying out loud. Everyone listening, you have permission to ignore feedback that people give you.

Jen: 100%. 100%.

Pete: So, the other lens I'd love to hear your perspective on is...we're talking about this as the person receiving the feedback.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: I'm also mindful that everyone listening to this podcast, and you and I, also have opportunities to give others feedback.

Jen: Oh, yes.

Pete: And so, we're actually the feedback giver, as opposed to the feedback receiver. So I'm like trying to wrap my head around, "How can I, as the feedback giver, leverage this three part structure?" And I feel like, I know you have thoughts.

Jen: Well, this is something I really try very hard to implement. Is, if someone has asked me for feedback, I want to know the lay of the land first. I want them to tell me what has happened before I entered the story.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: So if someone is, for example, showing me their latest audition song. Before I give them feedback, I say, "What are you intending to use this for?"

Pete: Mmm.

Jen: My feedback is irrelevant if I don't know how you're going to use it. Or if someone's like, "Oh my gosh, I have to have this really hard conversation with my agent. I need help strategizing it," I'm like, "Let's back up. Take me all the way back to the beginning. I need to understand how we got to this point to begin with."

Pete: Yeah, that's good. So there's a clarifying posture we can take as the feedback giver, to give ourselves more context, to then provide more effective feedback. I love that. I feel like you've done this with me, of like, "Do you want thirty thousand footnotes on this keynote, or do you want me to drill down on why that specific story in that third part there actually is no good and you need to reframe it this way?"

Jen: And you know what? That context is so helpful. I had a situation last week, where someone came in for an audition coaching. And I don't know why, I just...something in me told me I needed to ask her when her audition was. I was seeing her at 10am. I was like, "Before we get into any notes, tell me when this audition is." She said, "1pm." I was like, "Oh. The only thing that will be helpful are notes you could apply in two hours."

Pete: Right.

Jen: Like, it doesn't matter if I think it needs an overhaul. I'm not going to give her overhaul notes. You know? By the end of our one hour session, it's 11am. And in two hours from then, she's doing it for realsies.

Pete: Right. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, you almost just need like a couple of notes and some encouragement or appreciation for what she's done. Hmm.

Jen: Right. Okay, I want to share one more thing around this three act structure. So in terms of story structure, this is on the macro. But also, this structure is applied on the micro. Every story is made up of smaller stories that also follow this structure. And I use this structure all the time across lots of different applications. But one of the things I use this three act structure for is something I call "momentum mindset". So, this is taking the micro stories. And it's also how, in acting, we talk about script analysis and how we keep the plot moving forward. That, the resolution of one story is actually the introduction of the next story. So, when you're thinking about feedback...so, I've solicited feedback from you. I give you the information, the Act One. Act Two, the plot develops and/or the confrontation, and I get all of your notes. And then, the resolution. Part three is, I figure out how I'm going to apply those notes, which ones I'm going to take, which ones I'm not going to take. Is there a follow up plan? So let's say in Act Three, I've decided I am taking your note to cut thirty minutes out of my next keynote. But that's the beginning of the next part. So the introduction is, "I've decided to cut thirty minutes out of my keynote." Then, I go to the plot develops. I get more feedback on it. Then, that ends up resolving. So it creates something that we both love, which is a feedback loop.

Pete: Hmm. I love that. I love that, I love that. It reminds me of the Mike Posner song, Move On, where he says, "Beginnings always hide themselves in ends." And I just feel like it's so true. The end of one story is the start of another. The end of one piece of feedback is probably the start of another.

Jen: I love that quote. And Pete, we should both incorporate it into our feedback workshops, the next time we run them on the same day at the same time.

Pete: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.