The Long and The Short Of It

Episode 288 - Procrastination

Transcript:

Pete: Hey, Jen.

Jen: Hey, Pete.

Pete: So a little insider baseball for our listeners, you and I have been sitting here for twenty-six minutes, umm-ing and ahh-ing, trying to figure out if we have an idea for episode, whether we ever will ever have an idea for an episode ever again. And it dawned on me, a very meta realization, which was A., we were procrastinating.

Jen: Mmm-hmm.

Pete: And B., we've never done an episode on procrastination, and I feel like we should.

Jen: Wow, airing our dirty laundry for all to hear. Let's talk about procrastination. This is The Long and The Short Of It.

Pete: I mean, I consider myself a pretty elite procrastinator. I think one of my most popular blog posts of all time...I say, "of all time," like it's some, you know, massive giant achievement. But one of my most popular blog posts is about procrastination. I wrote it, I don't even know, like 2017 maybe? I'm going to put it in the Box O' Goodies. But the premise was basically: When I feel like I need to do something important, I decide that the more important thing to do is to clean my kitchen. And then once I've cleaned my kitchen, I realize I need to reorganize my wardrobe. And once I've reorganized my wardrobe, I decide that the deck needs sweeping outside. So I'll go and sweep the deck, and on and on it goes. And I feel like that's a common experience. I feel like I've experienced a lot of procrastination recently. I feel like this rhymes with what I spoke about in a recent episode about having momentum.

Jen: Yeah, riding the wave.

Pete: Riding the wave, right. And I feel like this is what happens prior to me riding the wave, is a whole bunch of procrastination. And the other reason it's very top of mind...I'm just like throwing some context at you. I heard Adam Grant interviewed on an Australian podcast, (he's been in Australia), called The Imperfects. I'll put a link to that in the Box O' Goodies. And they talked about procrastination. And I'm sure I've read this in his book, but for some reason, it didn't land then. But it really landed yesterday when I listened to it. And that was that there is a healthy form of procrastination, especially when it comes to creative work. That actually, some form of procrastination is a good thing. And naturally, I got excited about that because it made me feel better about the fact that I procrastinate a lot. So, those are my jumping off points. Does this make sense? Do you procrastinate?

Jen: Yes and yes.

Pete: I feel like you're so not a procrastinator. This is fun. Okay, tell me more.

Jen: Well, I had an aha moment around this topic, maybe ten to fifteen years ago.

Pete: Alright. Let's wind it back.

Jen: How much older than you am I?

Pete: I'm thirty-five this year. Thirty-five this year, wild.

Jen: Okay, okay. And I will be forty-nine this year, so it is appropriate that you are about to have this aha moment right now that I had when I was your age.

Pete: This is great.

Jen: Okay, so here's basically what I landed on, is that sometimes I genuinely procrastinate. And in those moments, it's appropriate for me to label that thing as procrastination. However, there were times I was erroneously labeling as procrastination one of the following three things...

Pete: Okay.

Jen: One: Curiosity. Two: My process. Three: White space.

Pete: Oh.

Jen: And the way I was sort of able to finally sort through this (and I wrote a blog post about this, which I will drop in the Box O' Goodies) is that my procrastination doesn't lead to anything meaningful. It doesn't lead to any output. It doesn't lead to any impact for me or for anybody else. But the other three things always lead to something meaningful and always lead me to something impactful, whether it's for me or for somebody else.

Pete: I can hear my defensive procrastination voice wanting to say, "Yeah, but cleaning the house is serving you in some way."

Jen: Okay, well, let me put these categories in context then.

Pete: Please, yeah. Tell me more. I love the sound of them. And also, I love the fact that you casually used the word "erroneously", such a great word. So, curiosity, process, and white space. These are erroneously or can be erroneously labeled as procrastination, but you're saying they're something else. So, tell us more.

Jen: Okay, so if I'm working on a project, let's say, and I go to read the script. And I'm online and I'm reading the script, and then there's a word in there or a reference in there that I don't really know, and I'm like, "I should probably look that up." So then, I go over to Google and I type thing in. And suddenly, I'm two hours down a rabbit hole of the etymology of this word or the origin of the source material, or whatever. To me, I would have previously labeled that as procrastinating.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But in the world of the work I do, that's actually me following my curiosity, so that I can better understand the world of the play and contribute in a more meaningful way to the project.

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: So, I am a rabbit hole diver. Like, I will leap headfirst down a rabbit hole now because I'm following my curiosity.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: However, if I had gone to look up that word or that reference and then spent two hours scrolling Facebook, that's procrastination.

Pete: Right, very different. Yes. Alright, alright, I like that example. The question that comes to mind for me, just for what it's worth, I'm trying to think of a validating question for myself if I catch myself doing something and I go, "Ugh, you're procrastinating." It feels like, having not heard the process and white space yet, but for curiosity, I wonder if the question is: Does this serve the work?

Jen: Yes.

Pete: Like, "This thing that I've decided is now important, does this serve the work?" If it's looking up the etymology of a word, (another great word), I could say, "Yeah, this is actually serving my work." Whereas if I'm scrolling Facebook randomly, it's so obvious that the answer to that is, "No, this is not serving my work at all."

Jen: Total sidebar, Pete. I feel like in the last six months, you have gotten exceptionally good at summarizing a thought with a question.

Pete: Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Jen: And I just want to say that out loud, because I think it is a superpower you've really cultivated and honed in on recently. And I don't know if you know that you do that, so just sharing that.

Pete: I appreciate that. I don't think I knew that I was doing that deliberately, but I can think of examples now that you've said that where I have done that. So, interesting. Alright, I'll just keep going down that rabbit hole myself. Summarizing with questions.

Jen: Yeah, it's a good one.

Pete: Okay, tell me about process. Have you got some thoughts on process?

Jen: Yes. So, this process thing was something that became a big aha moment for me. I found myself trying to work on other people's timelines. Where I would, for example, have a keynote or workshop on the calendar for three months out, and I'd be like, "Well, you know, the general consensus is that that means I should be working on it right now." And so I would start doing outlines, and run throughs, and double and triple drafts, and all this stuff. And then, my work just wasn't as good. And then, I found myself in a situation where I had not three months to prepare. And like four days before I delivered the keynote, I figured out what I was going to say. And then, that was the best one I had ever done. And I was like, "Wait a minute. What is going on? I thought I was procrastinating if I didn't start working on this three months ago. But actually, my process is to know that it's coming, to be thinking about it, to be seeing the world through keynote-colored glasses. And then, when it's imminent, to actually figure out how I'm going to share what I want to share." Once I accepted that about myself, all of that really fell into place.

Pete: Oh my god, I feel this might be the moment where I am the most called out in any podcast we've ever recorded. I'm like squirming and laughing to myself here. Firstly, I feel compelled to try and put this into a question, because of what you said before.

Jen: Sorry, no pressure.

Pete: So, the question in my mind is: What is your process? So you've got to get some clarity on what your process is, so that you can sense check, "Is this in alignment with my process? Or am I actually deviating from that, in which case I might be procrastinating?" But also, just what you described, that has happened to me I could count three times in the last week. And if you're listening, Stacy (my friend who I share an office space with), she was laughing at me yesterday because I'd wound myself up to the point of, "Oh, I have to run a workshop tomorrow. And I was pretending like I was working on the agenda for two weeks, but actually, I haven't worked on the agenda at all. And now, I haven't got an agenda in place, and I need it to pull it all together. And how was I going to do it?" And I went and had a coffee, and like five minutes later, I had an agenda. And I was like, "Oh, there we go. There it is." And the reason it's such a thrash for me, I think (and I was sharing this with Stacy), is because I tell myself a story that, "You need to be honing your agenda in a specific word doc format for weeks at a time."

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I don't even know where that has come from. Because I also know, when I'm at my best is when I have a loose idea. Definitely a rough idea of where I want to go, but confidence and a fluidity in the approach to sort of meet the audience or the group or the team where they're at. And yet, I go through this every freakin' time. Like, "Oh, you idiot. You should have created this agenda three weeks ago. Now, the workshop is tomorrow, and it's all going to go to hell." And then, you inevitably run the workshop, it goes really well, and you didn't do anything that you said you were going to do in your agenda. So I just, I don't know, I just feel compelled to say all that out loud, if someone's listening and relates. But it's...I still grapple with this a lot. Clearly, it's because I'm reaching this aha moment age of thirty-five, like you mentioned.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: So, process. I feel like I need to almost write down what is my process, accept that that is my process, and be comfortable that is a process that has served me.

Jen: Right. And your process could evolve over time. And you might have different processes for different scenarios.

Pete: For sure.

Jen: But at the end of the day, the goal is to put your best work out there, right?

Pete: Mmm-hmm.

Jen: So what space do you need to give yourself, what kind of time do you need to give yourself to actually do your best work?

Pete: So true. Have I told the story about the time I wrote an agenda on a hotel notepad and took it into a workshop? Have I told this story.

Jen: I have no idea.

Pete: Okay, let me just share. This is part of, I think, what's recently triggering my, "You need to write a thorough agenda and make it look professional." I had a very senior group of leaders for one of the biggest organizations here in Australia that I was running a workshop for, and I guess I hadn't quite appreciated that the day before. And I was in Sydney, and I was out for dinner. And I was doing what I usually do, which was I guess prior to me overthinking a lot of these things, which was mapping out, sketching out what the agenda could look like or might look like based on what I was going to be doing. I was asking, "Who is it for? What's it for? How should I approach this? What questions can I ask? What do we need to talk about? What's success for them?" I was like basically , but I didn't have a whiteboard because I was out for dinner like in the hotel. And I had asked the waiter for a notepad, and they gave me a notepad which had the name of the hotel on the front of it. And so, I've got this thing. It was also one of those notepads that's like A5.

Jen: I don't know what that means.

Pete: So, tiny.

Jen: Oh, okay.

Pete: As in, A4 is a regular-sized sheet of paper, and A5 is like half of it. So, it's a tiny little notepad. Anyway, I show up to the workshop the next day with my tiny little notepad that says the hotel name on it, and I run this workshop for this very senior group of people. It went so well. And after the fact, one of the executives said to me, "You know what, Pete? When you rolled in with that tiny little notepad and said, 'I'm not using any slides,' I thought to myself, 'What the hell have we gotten ourselves into? This is going to be a waste of our time.'"

Jen: Ahh.

Pete: And he was like, "And I was totally wrong. It was the best workshop I've been a part of. So like, thank you so much." So I think that whole experience has like shaped my, "I need to have a professional agenda." Anyway, that was a random sidebar.

Jen: Oh my gosh, that is so funny. But also, so you.

Pete: But it's just like, trust your process. You know that that was ridiculous and absurd. And maybe don't use a hotel notepad, I get that. But the process of thinking about it the night before is okay, if that serves your work. Which for me, it does. So, this is becoming like a therapy session for Pete. But you know, so it goes.

Jen: And I just want to say like, I'm thinking about like when I'm directing a play. Would I wait until seventy-two hours out to figure out what I'm doing? No. I will prepare for months, a year to really steep myself in everything, because that's how much time it takes to do that.

Pete: Yeah.

Jen: But how much time does it actually take to prepare my keynote? Not very long.

Pete: Well, and I think part of it is because you've been doing the preparation in all the workshops you've been running prior to this.

Jen: Right.

Pete: So, I certainly feel that way for me. Is, all of the workshops I'd run up until the point of me running that next workshop was preparation. Like, I've been doing the work. I've got the reps in. I just need to draw from that.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: So, I think the same is true with your keynote. So, what about white space? I took us off rails there. What about white space?

Jen: Well, white space is committing to unstructured time, during which you may or may not be "working". But you're working under the hood. So again, it's not like, "Oh, it's my white space time. Let me go scroll Facebook." It might be, "It's my white space time. Let me go for a walk, and see what thoughts come to me," or, "It's my white space time. I'm going to turn on a piece of music and close my eyes for thirty minutes, and see what comes up," or I might read something, or maybe I'm going to, you know, I live in New York City. Everywhere you look, there's something interesting to do.

Pete: Right.

Jen: So, it's about creating the conditions for new ideas to come.

Pete: Mmm, love that. How do I create the conditions for new ideas to come? Yeah, that's really good. So for some, it's a walk. I totally relate to the walking. For others, it's a swim, or a sauna, or something that almost gives your brain permission to think in the background, without you realizing it's thinking in the background.

Jen: Right.

Pete: And I mean, I think one of our very first episodes was called Shower Thoughts.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: Which was sort of a hysterical episode we recorded about how we came up with great ideas when we're in the shower. And I think this is part of that, is because it's almost like white space time in the shower.

Jen: That's right.

Pete: You give your brain permission to think about something else, because you're not staring at a screen. So, hmm, making space for white space.

Jen: You know the old adage that, "The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree?"

Pete: Yes.

Jen: As this seems to be a side note episode...side note, my fourteen-year-old daughter Cate is a songwriter. And she's writing an album right now with her best friend Mabel, and it's called Shower Thoughts.

Pete: Oh my god, that's so good. Yes. Well, we will include a link to that in the Box O' Goodies when it's ready for release.

Jen: Once it's available.

Pete: Ah, yeah. I just have to say, I find these three categories (curiosity, process, whitespace) so helpful. If nothing else, to give myself a break when I beat myself up for procrastinating, because I do beat myself up for procrastinating a lot. And I think sometimes it's because I genuinely am procrastinating, like I'm reading some random forum about some random side topic that I decided I wanted to get interested in all of a sudden, like the benefits of cold water swimming. And then, other times it's because I have followed my curiosity about facilitating a certain workshop in a certain style, and I'm talking to chatGPT about, "What are the ways that you could facilitate that I haven't thought about before," and I'm down some random rabbit hole, but that's not actually procrastination.

Jen: Yep.

Pete: And it just dawned on me now, you and I have been...we kind of joked about the fact that this is a sidebar episode. And it's almost like you could say we've been procrastinating, but I actually think we've been following our curiosity.

Jen: So meta.

Pete: In that, this episode is kind of a meta experience of us doing that. So, there you go.

Jen: And it's very possible that one of our listeners right now is in a park and exploring their white space time, and decided to turn us on. So thank you, listener walking in a park. You're not procrastinating after all.

Pete: Let us be the source of your non-procrastination, the source of your curiosity as part of your process and/or helping you build in white space. I love it.

Jen: And that is The Long and The Short Of It.